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4 things that would make CoH2 instantly better

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20 Jun 2013, 16:44 PM
#361
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

CoH2 simply doesnt have the underlying things vCoH had.

*Map Design: CoH2 has no true cutoffs, maps are littered with strat points for easy mode, instead of motivating fights through level design.

*Doctrine TREES: We liked trees. We liked that complexity, because it dictated how you played and when you did it. Not only do we now get less actual abilities, some of them REPEATED, but they offer much less strategical branching. Now we have to wait for DLC's to come out, money to be paid and bitching to commence about balance. ToV all over again.

*Call ins: Now Relic has gone in the right direction with these, after 7 months of feedback, by giving us back call ins. Im not too happy with the fuel costs associated with them, but nobody is perfect (good luck watching an IS-2 in a game now).

*Small Arms Lethality: Combined with chokey map design, flanking is simply useless in a lot of situations. You can keep peppering with the troops' paintball guns and people take a while to die. It shouldn't be hard to fix, but its more time fixing -basic- stuff, and less time fine tuning balance.

*Target Tables: It made the game very complex to balance, but it also allowed fine tuning. It allowed for specialist units and balance: Hey, I want the Ostwind a little bit deadlier to Shock Troops and the Pak less accurate against Scout Cars. Nope, not possible. You have to tweak the universal values, possibly tipping stuff you didn't want there before.

The game can still evolve, and I hope it does, but it doesn't have the same intricate feeling.
20 Jun 2013, 17:22 PM
#362
avatar of TychoCelchuuu
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 1620 | Subs: 2

I don't know if I agree about the call-ins (I think giving them a fuel cost might be a good idea) but the rest sounds pretty much right to me.
20 Jun 2013, 18:02 PM
#363
avatar of Maestro Cretella

Posts: 14

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2013, 11:13 AMNullist


No? Look harder.

Its essentially and basically DoW2 elements which define this from vCoH.

Starting from such superficialmelements as UI layout where resources are listed horizontally across the UI bar as they are in DoW2 rather than vertically near the minimap as in vCoH to setup team suppression rates, to the (now removed) upkeep thresholds to a plethora of variances present in DoW2 but not in vCoH.

Perhaps you are not familiar with vCoH as well as DoW2 and assume those elements where in vCoH already?

How about instead of "Look harder," you actually explain. Otherwise I will just assume that you're wrong. So far you've got user interface and suppression rate, which isn't much. A few superficial elements maybe, but most of the actual game mechanics are closer to vCoH.

CoH2 still has infinitely more in common with vCoH than DoW2. It's not even close.


Seriously mate - you missed my point COMPLETELY.

I have absolutely NO INTEREST in your DOW - I was using it as an example of somebody trying to argue something is better than something else with NOT HAVING ANY IDEA of how hood the other item was in comparison.

You get what I'm talking about?

Example - Porsche's are sh!t cars - Though I've never owned or driven a Porshce.
Example - France isn't as good to travel as Italy - Though I've never traveled Italy.

YOUR EXAMPLE

COH2 is a much better game than COH1 - BUT I'VE NEVER REALLY PLAYED COH1.

You need to drop the attitude and fix yourself, because right now you are a poor representative of the game you love so much. YOU missed his point COMPLETELY. He has NO INTEREST in vCoH. That's his example. He likes CoH2 while vCoH simply never caught his interest.

Your problem is that you're stuck thinking that experience from vCoH is the only valid perspective to view CoH2 from. It's certainly not a good sign that Relic seems to have alienated the series' most dedicated playerbase, but having vCoH experience is not a prerequisite to liking or disliking CoH2.
20 Jun 2013, 20:20 PM
#364
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

I don't know if I agree about the call-ins (I think giving them a fuel cost might be a good idea) but the rest sounds pretty much right to me.


I once toyed with the notion of adding a fuel cost to the call ins, to prevent spam and such. However, I remember back in vCoH that sometimes, having a high manpower cost with no fuel sometimes allowed a fuel deprived player to achieve a comeback, and I liked that. Mind you, it should not be easy mode: one of the problems back in vCoH was simply spamming call ins.

Maybe its the IS-2 and Tiger 300 and 250 fuel costs that bug me, but the Panzer Command Tank and KV-8 don't feel as crippled by the fuel cost.
20 Jun 2013, 20:59 PM
#365
avatar of PingPing

Posts: 329


You need to drop the attitude and fix yourself, because right now you are a poor representative of the game you love so much. YOU missed his point COMPLETELY. He has NO INTEREST in vCoH. That's his example. He likes CoH2 while vCoH simply never caught his interest.

Your problem is that you're stuck thinking that experience from vCoH is the only valid perspective to view CoH2 from. It's certainly not a good sign that Relic seems to have alienated the series' most dedicated playerbase, but having vCoH experience is not a prerequisite to liking or disliking CoH2.


Maybe YOU should real the full discussion before you throw your 2 cents into how I should behave.

The poster is making a reference to COH2 being better than COH1 yet has limited/no COH experience - so I throw a rhetorical question/position at him stating that I have no idea of his game, yet what he's doing is the equivalent of me saying how much better DOW X is better than DOW Y yet I've got no experience with DOW at all besides that DOW X Beta.

IE - How can you pass an opinion when you have no valid point of reference?

Now that said - where did all the opinionated trolls suddenly appear from?
20 Jun 2013, 21:04 PM
#366
avatar of TheDGN

Posts: 65



Maybe YOU should real the full discussion before you throw your 2 cents into how I should behave.

The poster is making a reference to COH2 being better than COH1 yet has limited/no COH experience - so I throw a rhetorical question/position at him stating that I have no idea of his game, yet what he's doing is the equivalent of me saying how much better DOW X is better than DOW Y yet I've got no experience with DOW at all besides that DOW X Beta.

IE - How can you pass an opinion when you have no valid point of reference?

Now that said - where did all the opinionated trolls suddenly appear from?


WHo's trolling? This is a forum. Do you know what that is? If you do then you understand the point is to discuss topics of interest.
20 Jun 2013, 21:07 PM
#367
avatar of PingPing

Posts: 329

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2013, 21:04 PMTheDGN


WHo's trolling? This is a forum. Do you know what that is? If you do then you understand the point is to discuss topics of interest.


Exactly - and this thread has been well and truly derailed from the original point of discussion - i.e. how to improve the game.
21 Jun 2013, 00:11 AM
#368
avatar of Maestro Cretella

Posts: 14



Maybe YOU should real the full discussion before you throw your 2 cents into how I should behave.

The poster is making a reference to COH2 being better than vCOH yet has limited/no COH experience - so I throw a rhetorical question/position at him stating that I have no idea of his game, yet what he's doing is the equivalent of me saying how much better DOW X is better than DOW Y yet I've got no experience with DOW at all besides that DOW X Beta.

IE - How can you pass an opinion when you have no valid point of reference?

Now that said - where did all the opinionated trolls suddenly appear from?

He is saying that he likes CoH2, while vCoH is a game that never caught his interest. What you're doing is the equivalent of him telling you to play DoW when you have no interest in playing that game. Just stop. The only necessary requirement for a valid opinion of CoH2 is to have played CoH2. End of story. You're going to get a lot of new players for CoH2, whether it's from StarCraft, DoW or Men of War, and I will call you out for your UNACCEPTABLE behavior if you insist on harassing them because they like CoH2. The only thing you're achieving is creating the impression that this is a community that is hostile to newcomers.

Now that said - why are you being such a troll?
21 Jun 2013, 00:35 AM
#369
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
@Maestro Cretella; You knew jack about DoW2, and even less about CoH, and even less about CoH2.

Your casts are a constant laugh for me.

The less you try to finger me, the less I will come back at you.

Drop it. Now.
21 Jun 2013, 07:31 AM
#370
avatar of Marcus2389
Admin Black Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

Ok guys, calm down and move back on topic, which is discussing about the 4 points suggested by Tommy. ;)

I would add that I think the game lacks too much of upgrades/reliable ways to spend your resources instead of just teching (bars,supply yard upgrades, and units upgrades). Right now Russians have only 3 global upgrades (heal,molotovs,at grenades) and Germans have no global upgrade. This gives players a lot less chances to vary on their strategies and builds since their choices are limited by the limited number of the strategic options.
21 Jun 2013, 08:23 AM
#371
avatar of Qvazar

Posts: 881

Yeah.. That was already apparent in the alpha, the only teching choice is what kind of tank to get :o
23 Jun 2013, 04:38 AM
#372
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642


I would add that I think the game lacks too much of upgrades/reliable ways to spend your resources instead of just teching (bars,supply yard upgrades, and units upgrades). Right now Russians have only 3 global upgrades (heal,molotovs,at grenades) and Germans have no global upgrade. This gives players a lot less chances to vary on their strategies and builds since their choices are limited by the limited number of the strategic options.


This is true. The axis were "slowed"· down by the phases upgrades, as well as the important decision to either vet your troops, or improve your tech, while the Americans had to keep upgrading their units to maintain their presence in the battlefield.

The additions of some upgrades would greatly help to develop a "decision tree" to make games games more varied and colorful.
23 Jun 2013, 04:54 AM
#373
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 927



This is true. The axis were "slowed"· down by the phases upgrades, as well as the important decision to either vet your troops, or improve your tech, while the Americans had to keep upgrading their units to maintain their presence in the battlefield.

The additions of some upgrades would greatly help to develop a "decision tree" to make games games more varied and colorful.


Agreed

Most of the time, what stopped the Americans going for a quick Sher was the fuel cost of the supply yard. The supply yard is very useful in midgame/late game but in the early game, it was a large fuel impost which would make it very difficult to get a quick sher.

Here on the other hand, in COH2, you can get a T34 reasonably quickly. The fuel rate tends to be roughly around COH1 and there's nothing to spend fuel on in the earlygame (unless if you're going for clowncar start)- AT nades costs about as much fuel as stickies, Molotovs cost less than stickies and there's no BAR upgrades.

So, there must be some kind of stopgap, esp considering the T34 is considerably cheaper than the Sherman was (240 MP vs 420 MP) and the fuel being the same.

It could also make the russians reasonably competitive endgame too by reducing their manpower rate.

TLDR: Bring back Supply yard - it's what made Americans competitive towards the end and not BS at the beginning
24 Jun 2013, 17:20 PM
#374
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

Perhaps not a Supply Yard, per se (it requires new art content) but global upgrades.

I dont like OF's design, but the PE upgrades make sense to me. Get to fast T3, want those T-34's? need a small upgrade to purchase them. Same, perhaps with SU-85. These, along with perhaps a slight buff if necessary can help slow down the game's escalation.

Not sure if this would work with the Axis, since their escalation is more structured by phases, but we do need something to promote extended early games and branching.

EDIT: Plus, putting this into the game only requires the creation of a couple of icons in the UI for the upgrades, as far as assets go.
24 Jun 2013, 17:31 PM
#375
avatar of Purlictor

Posts: 393

Perhaps not a Supply Yard, per se (it requires new art content) but global upgrades.

I dont like OF's design, but the PE upgrades make sense to me. Get to fast T3, want those T-34's? need a small upgrade to purchase them. Same, perhaps with SU-85. These, along with perhaps a slight buff if necessary can help slow down the game's escalation.

Not sure if this would work with the Axis, since their escalation is more structured by phases, but we do need something to promote extended early games and branching.

EDIT: Plus, putting this into the game only requires the creation of a couple of icons in the UI for the upgrades, as far as assets go.


Exactly. I mentioned this before:

T1 upgrade - unlocks sniper
T2 upgrade - unlocks ATG
T3 upgrade - unlocks T-34
T4 upgrade - unlocks SU-85

The T1 and T2 upgrades being +-40 fuel and T3/4 being perhaps 60 fuel (this would mean that T3 and T4 building costs should go down, so a fast T70 hits the field at around the same time an M8 would).

This way the early game would last a bit longer, and have teching actually be interesting. Wehr tech might have to be slowed down a bit to balance it out though (thinking of a flamerHT being on the field faster than the ATG, since almost every wehr player goes T2).
24 Jun 2013, 17:44 PM
#376
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

I like that idea.

Wehr phases could be extended so it takes about a 20-30% time increase to escalate.

The only thing I'd disagree is locking out the Soviet ATG from a vanilla building, reason being, they should have some sort of Hard AT available to them earlier, free of upgrades. What I would do is include a global uppgrade in T2 that allowed both the ZiS and the SU-75 to do their barrage abilities.

Another upgrade could be crew-centric: reduce the Soviet crew sizes from 6 to 3. Upgrade crews from 3 to 6 with it, useful if the German is focusing on anti infantry.
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