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russian armor

1v1 L2P issue vs Ostheer

12 Sep 2014, 13:26 PM
#1
avatar of Nailirie

Posts: 27

I just recently after 170 hours of custom and co-op games started doing automatched games.

I've found myself constantly losing to the same Ostheer play (making me wish I saved replays) - a slow, extremely defensive play into Pz IV(s) into Tiger. And usually I've had most of the capture points and 2-1 or even 3-0 VP's till the Panzers roll out.

The best I managed to do against this so far was having a pair of T-34 85s with one SU-85. I could beat the enemy to fall back (the Tiger took quite a beating with Mark Vehicle), but finishing them off seems extremely risky. I'll admit the opponents were good at preserving their vehicles, especially with the smoke. I did try chasing a hurt Tiger with the T-34s; what I found was the PaK and PG's supporting from the rear. Once the Pz IV's reach Vet 2 the Zis guns seem to lose their bite, and the 85's get less reliable too.

During this struggle I usually bled quite a bunch of mp on reinforcing my guards and scripts, who were trying to tip the armored battle in my favor with AT nades and button ability. Having to focus on fending off the panzer forces I start losing grip on other sections of the battlefield, eventually losing ground and forces. Once I do get the Tiger down, I've lost map control, have no resources and a scattered army. Having invested in T34-85s and SU-85 I find myself unable to recapture the lost areas due to PGs and Paks warding off the vehicles and LMG grens guarding them from my infantry.

Tl;dr: How to fend off the inevitable Pz4 + Tiger push, or am I to end the game before that happens?

I'll post a replay if I fail against this again. Hope not. :mellow:
12 Sep 2014, 13:59 PM
#2
avatar of CelticsREP

Posts: 151

If you could manage to give us some replay's that would be very useful. As for your problems i would say that defensive German play is hard to break yes, but at your level and vs your opponents i would say that picking areas to attack will be key to success, as it is with everyone. Soviets generally can get away with spreading units over a larger area early game, with this in mind if you play a competent Osth player, he will most likely focus his forces and lock an area down.

Dont play into his hands by engaging him where he wants you too, be unpredictable. Also if you can make sure your army has variety and can handle most situations.

Just constantly pressure weak areas, harass, be a pain in the ass, stay active, keep him on the alert constantly. But above all be SMART, dont bleed where you dont need too, dont hit his defenses head on and dont lose units. Of course even the best lose units, but the smaller your loses the better.
13 Sep 2014, 06:34 AM
#3
avatar of Increasenull

Posts: 7

May I suggest Mortars as a cheap soft counter to that form of AT or if you have fuel a katyusha.

While you shell his entrenched positions, try to sneak the T34s around the back of his army and base just to fire 1 or two shots then run. It will force slow units like AT guns to reposition. Watch out for Tellers as its a good way to lose a tank.


Also in general, I prefer Zis guns to Su85s as fire support. It may sound crazy but I consider them to be more survivable than a Su85 and you can save the cost of the tech building into making more T34s 85s. The building and the SU85 cost almost as much as another T34 call in.



I don't really play soviet all that well but I hate this as Ostheer so I think thats a good way to judge it.
13 Sep 2014, 10:08 AM
#4
avatar of bämbabäm

Posts: 246

edit2: IIRC, your last replay is automatically saved. If you haven't played any other games since the last time this happened, you can upload this replay.
13 Sep 2014, 13:51 PM
#5
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2057 | Subs: 1

whoa, you barely played dude. I suggest way more proper multiplayer play time.
13 Sep 2014, 14:54 PM
#6
avatar of Hagen67483

Posts: 65

Since I didn`t saw it in your Post I have to ask if you use mines enough. One tipp with the MP bleed with Guards, use merge as much as you can, since the Inf change in march, there is no downside in merging conscripts with guards. And Iam not sure if a T4 is worth it if you build only 1 Su85, because you pay nearly as much fuel as 2 additional T34/85. I would need a replay to give further advice.

Here is a link to a youtube video were a Soviet Player with T4 and T34/85 but without guards beats a german Player with Pz4 and Tiger Ace build order. That was the closest vid that I could find, that fits the matchup you descript. It is a long video to show that even the strong german lategame is not invincible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23KEIqMtsOA&list=UUyUcNdOxXcVt3o9eZKdza9w

And dasheepeh asking for advice is a right of new players. Better than starting a "I demand a nerf of the unit that just kicked my ass" Post, like many do.
13 Sep 2014, 15:11 PM
#7
avatar of Khan

Posts: 578

You should try playing as Ostheer to see how your opponents react to this strat and also to find limitations of the faction to exploit them when versing it.
14 Sep 2014, 01:02 AM
#8
avatar of Nailirie

Posts: 27

Thank you all for replies, especially the video was intresting! I haven't found many up to date guides (most of them date back to 2013) about gameplay so I haven't done much research beforehand really.


Also in general, I prefer Zis guns to Su85s as fire support..

I'm still lacking in skill to use them effectively, so they didn't really get much done. Oh well, more practise!

whoa, you barely played dude. I suggest way more proper multiplayer play time.

Yup, thats true. Still new and learning, not frustrated yet! :)

I am not sure if a T4 is worth it if you build only 1 Su85, because you pay nearly as much fuel as 2 additional T34/85. I would need a replay to give further advice.


I'm sure this is where I can improve my play, I probably tech up unnecessarily fast instead of relying on the call-ins more. I was worried wether I can hoard up enough resources for the call-in while still keeping up a fight.


And dasheepeh asking for advice is a right of new players. Better than starting a "I demand a nerf of the unit that just kicked my ass" Post, like many do.

My thoughts exactly :)
30 Sep 2014, 19:21 PM
#9
avatar of SovietMightier

Posts: 7

Hey so I created an account specifically to reply here but here are a few ways to deal with P4s and Tigers that I've come across/figured out in my multiplayer games.

1) AT nades. Getting molotovs is generally a waste but AT grenades are a must, the easiest way to defeat any tank rush and to make sure they don't get away from you is to have a conscript squad on hand to throw an AT nade and damage the engine. If you're not doing this then your entire approach to enemy armour is lacking.

2) IMO the zis isn't nearly as survivable as the SU-85, way to easy to take down as ostheer, a single gren squad with LMG and the use of a rifle nade will make that AT gun disapear in seconds, let alone enemy armour. That said it is important to get at least 1 I find - or steal a german AT gun. When the tank rush comes the enemy will usually focus on your vehicles which lets your AT gun let loose relatively unmolested. Add some infantry or a HMG to cover the AT Gun and you're golden - remember that infantry can/should be conscripts which also nade the tanks as they roll in.

3) 2-3 T76s should be able to deal with a P4 or 2 P4s relatively easily as long as you're able to micro decently - i.e. try to get a couple to the rear, you'll likely lose 1 possibly 2 but if you manage to get 2 of your tanks getting rear shots you should win - same goes for taking out a Tiger, 3 T34/76 running circles will win - the issue as you point out is if the enemy have any support like infantry or AT guns - again you need to combine arms things - Kats/mortars/call-in arty onto the enemy strong point and try and infantry rush the at guns (not right into HMGs tho - if covered by a HMG use the arty to take that out and then rush your inf to take the AT gun).

4) combined 1,2 & 3. an AT gun and 1 (eventually 2) T34/76's can deal a great amount of damage - again combined with enemy engine damage via script AT nades. The AT gun hammers away while you try and get around to the rear armour with the T34/76. Now I usually go shock troops instead of guards - buttoning doesn't do it for me. I'd rather annihilate a panzergrend squad and steal their shreks (taken by conscripts not shock troops) which means (and am I stressing this enough?) I need the AT nades to slow the tanks down.

5) SU-85's two of these babies and you're bloody golden mate. Add an AT nade and any target they attack is dead. I just played a 3v3 where I had two of these guys and managed to take out 2 king tigers and 3 elephants (at separate times never together thankfully!). You just have to be careful with your micro - and this applies to the T34/76's too. Be patient the enemy will eventually muck up - you may force his infantry from the field leaving his tanks unsupported or he may charge and push your lines thinking to dominate you - then he pays for his audacity and temerity. Keep the SU's at max range and always be prepared to go u-right click (reverse). If the enemy rushes you you're probaly going to have problems - again AT nades help stop this, also having an AT gun in support will help you even if they rush the SUs - but reverse movement is your friend and you should make sure you're used to moving themback an quickly s the enemy charges you.

General stuff)
Focus fire - make sure all your AT elements whatever they are are firing at the same target - better to take out 1 of 2 rather than damaging both and letting them both live.

Against an early P4 you should be able to take it out with a single AT gun and conscript squad, take out the engines and then just let the at gun rip, use the conscripts to keep the panzer in sight and eventually the at nade will cool down and you throw it again. Obviously you need to be careful for enemy infantry so as I said above - be patient but that combo should force a lone P4 from the field. Against a spam rush they're probably going to try and rush past your AT gun - again nades totake out the engine helps, if you have the manpower and no other option then get yourself a 2nd AT gun - don't ever place these together, separate them somewhat so that they can give supporting fire to each other but not both be outflanked by the same enemy units. Be ready to recrew the at guns tho.

Tigers same, an AT gun, a single AT nade an then 2-3 tanks of your choice. If you go SU-85's you try to keep them firing at max distance and if they look like they're going to die you reverse them out (also should keep an engi nearby for heals etc.) it may take you a couple games but eventually you'll figure out when you should reverse and when you're probably going to be able to take another hit. If the enemy has just right clicked then the enemy tank will roll forward - this has the bonus of decreasing their aim, being closer will increase our damage and also means it takes longer for them to run if they realize they're in trouble.

Wih T34/76s or 85's you try and get around the sides, never stop moving, keep the things running circles around the larger, slower tank (again easier if you're used an AT nade to damage it's engine) -You keep the moving because A) it means they're likely to get out of any AT guns arc B) you can race against the tiger turret so you're firing while the thing is trying to get a bead on you C) you get to hit the weaker rear armour while your AT gun/SU-85's/IS-152 etc' are hitting it from the front. If you really want to be a cock you can race a tank to the rear and stop it directly behind thetiger - the gun barrle will be too large to fire at the T34 and it won't be able to reverse - but your 76 will still be able to fire - as will your other guns etc. You can even try to box in on two or three sides - all your tanks will be under the barrel of the Tiger but you'll still be able to hit and that's good bye tiger.

I hope this helps - hope I haven't sounded like a boasting twat just trying to help you out with my experiences in dealing with enemy armour. OH last thing - placing a mine or two on roads behind your lines is a good idea as well - it can be helpful when the armour rushes you but also if your infantry or precious snipers are being chased down by an enemy car or luchs or p4 etc hitting a mine usually makes them think twice and they being to move back to the rear - also it makes the vehicles slower so if you do have AT assets just not in place it gives you time to bring up your at guns/tanks etc and take the enemy armour out.
1 Oct 2014, 19:10 PM
#10
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

Thanks. I must be underestimating the power of AT nades early game
2 Oct 2014, 09:55 AM
#11
avatar of SovietMightier

Posts: 7

Oh yeah man, two AT nades is all you need to take out a halftrack or armoured car if they rush that at you as well.
3 Oct 2014, 00:49 AM
#12
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3528 | Subs: 2

I just recently after 170 hours of custom and co-op games started doing automatched games.

I've found myself constantly losing to the same Ostheer play (making me wish I saved replays) - a slow, extremely defensive play into Pz IV(s) into Tiger. And usually I've had most of the capture points and 2-1 or even 3-0 VP's till the Panzers roll out.

The best I managed to do against this so far was having a pair of T-34 85s with one SU-85. I could beat the enemy to fall back (the Tiger took quite a beating with Mark Vehicle), but finishing them off seems extremely risky. I'll admit the opponents were good at preserving their vehicles, especially with the smoke. I did try chasing a hurt Tiger with the T-34s; what I found was the PaK and PG's supporting from the rear. Once the Pz IV's reach Vet 2 the Zis guns seem to lose their bite, and the 85's get less reliable too.


Well, if you have a German defensive turtle play and you cannot end the game before they get mega armour out let's look at the ways to break it up.


I assume here that you are talking about a relatively compact German defensive position of MGs, bunkers and paks. Supported by a halftrack or bunker to reinforce and a med bunker these are hard to take out



You've been successful with Guard Motor and that gives you good tools to deal with their armour when they get it out (button, mark target + 34/85)

So let's work with that


You can ignore them and cap the rest of the map, however that is not ending the game quickly enough for you.

Also, by leaving them alone you would not be bleeding them MP, fuel or attention; nor are you getting close to the 9CP you need for the 34/85s


So you need to attack them, preferably force them to come and find you.


Method 1:

You have access to the 120mm mortar. This works with all mortars, but the 120 is especially good.

By buying 1 or 2 and attacking their position you will kill some models, this will cause a certain degree of MP bleed as they are obliged to reinforce; however once you get to Vet1 you can use precision strike to takeout entire weapons teams in one go and that will start to hurt


Be ready for him to break his position and come find you, this is what you want because it will break the turtle

Method 2:

Tech to T4 but get a Katusha not an SU-85.

One will cause bleed as above but not necessarily decrew or smash anything, two will hurt,3 will be deadly - if you can get 3.

Expect him to hunt down your katusyha, so mine the likely routes he will come. If that works you know have a crippled enemy tank a long way from safety


The Katushyas will also help in the armour battle by stripping away and damaging Pgrens and Paks and by driving off or killing engineers if he tries to repair to close



If you want to try other docs, anything with incendiary barrage will hurt against static defenders and that comes early enough to be useful

3 Oct 2014, 01:04 AM
#13
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818

I would recommend not getting T4, and simply waiting for t34 85s, Instead of 1 SU 85 and 2 t3485s you could have 4 T3485s for approximatley the same price.

From a unit composition standpoint you will have a great advantage as you will be able to eliminate any stray unit and completely surround and destroy them be it the Pak, P4, or tiger assuming you can micro the 85s well enough to avoid pak fire and block his tanks from escaping. This should give you good map control and stop the bleed as you will be able to punish him greatly if he is agressive with his units
3 Oct 2014, 04:07 AM
#14
avatar of SovietMightier

Posts: 7

haha to be the honest the great thing about this game is that there are multiple ways to defeat any build. Kats,multiple T34's whether 76s or 85s, SU-85s or AT guns etc. all help and it comes down to personal preference in the end. but some great advice here.
3 Oct 2014, 11:50 AM
#15
avatar of Nailirie

Posts: 27

Thank you all for replies! Lots of content to think on and to help me not get stuck with the same thing over and over again. I haven't really met this kind of play for a while, mostly because it seems I'm only fighting OKW these days. I'd like to think my harrassing skills have gone up a notch which probably plays a role in not letting them set up the turtling.

Before I didn't really have all that much munitions for the AT nades - I had spent them on getting DPs and using button ability. I've pretty much scrapped using DPs at all now though, I feel that button is only useful in situations where you have a presence strong enough that you don't actually even need it.


Well, if you have a German defensive turtle play and you cannot end the game before they get mega armour out let's look at the ways to break it up.


The method with mortars you described is something I've adapted to usage now. Especially against OKW forward HQs that are supported by the Schwerer Panzer HQ (T4 AA truck). Last game I went for Shock Rifle Frontline (The one with Shocks, KV-8, IS-2) so while I didn't have access to 120mm variants, the 82mm still did a good job. It was mostly bombarding the Schwerer Panzer HQ, forcing him to have one set of Sturmpios repairing it. Gained vet 3 in no time and did a neat precision strike on the Sturmpios.

As van Voort predicted, he did rush out a Pz II to wipe the mortar. I did lose the mortar but I feel he just threw the Luchs away, since I had cons and T34s near the mortar.


I would recommend not getting T4

I've come to same conclusion, now I'm relying on mortars and off-map to provide the indirect fire needed.
6 Oct 2014, 01:34 AM
#16
avatar of TheMightyCthulu

Posts: 127

It's a shame how useless T4 is for the original two factions, but it's the case. Avoid T4 with the Soviets or the Wehrmacht.

Edit: If you ever feel like playing against someone who isn't a pro, but can probably give you a challenge, add me on Steam. TheMightyCthulhu.
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