They are destroying the game, making doctrines without them useless and making non-doctrinal tanks a waste of resources in most cases./quote]
Pretty much this.
ISU SquadWipe-Foundation
5 Sep 2014, 10:36 AM
#41
Posts: 187
5 Sep 2014, 11:04 AM
#42
4 
Posts: 640 | Subs: 1
Several fixes come to mind for the ISU. Either would help.
- Double the reload time. Then you can keep all the other stats intact, including godly armour and forward vision. It would go well with its juggernaught theme.
- Alternatively, make forward vision reduce its movement speed to 0, making it sort of a lockdown mode.
- Alternatively, only make it able to shoot after it's been stationary for a few seconds. Like when the Kubelwagen suppression shot gets auto-activated. This way if it has to rotate to reacquire fast-moving targets it takes a few more seconds to get a shot off, so fast moving targets at medium to close range would force it to reacquire. It would still devastate at long range where the cone is wide.
- Double the reload time. Then you can keep all the other stats intact, including godly armour and forward vision. It would go well with its juggernaught theme.
- Alternatively, make forward vision reduce its movement speed to 0, making it sort of a lockdown mode.
- Alternatively, only make it able to shoot after it's been stationary for a few seconds. Like when the Kubelwagen suppression shot gets auto-activated. This way if it has to rotate to reacquire fast-moving targets it takes a few more seconds to get a shot off, so fast moving targets at medium to close range would force it to reacquire. It would still devastate at long range where the cone is wide.
5 Sep 2014, 12:19 PM
#43
Posts: 17892 | Subs: 8
Interesting as the 152 and Bummbar are both 6 inch artillery
How does the either compare to the 152 howitzer damage/AOE because in theory I think that's the same gun
Or maybe when they put a ZIS into an SU76 they extract it's mojo and install that into the ISU-152 when they put the 152 in there
There is a bit more to the gun then just caliber, like barrel length, ammo type used ect.
For reference-Sherman uses 75mm gun and panther use 75mm gun. Rest of the story is pretty obvious.
Same case here.
In ISU and SU-76 case, both use exactly the same weapons as their stationary counterparts, ISU uses exactly the same ML-20 howitzer, SU-76 uses exactly the same ZiS-3 gun that T2 AT gun is. Stats are different for balance reasons.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
5 Sep 2014, 12:56 PM
#44
Posts: 2819
Lel.
I dont get any wipes if my grens aren't cluttered. I dont see wipes when squads arent cluttered while casting. Therefore, I can conclude that it is a problem and it contributes to wiping potential, whether you like it or not or whether you think it makes "no sense".
Its not only the AOE, its both, and that doesnt only count for the Isu.
When your units clutter because they pass a narrow street and they hit a mine the squad gets wiped.
Does that mean the AOE is too big? No, the clutter and AOE was responsible for the wipe.
ISU has of course more AOE and will only wipe if the units clutter, and yes German units tend to clutter, specially when upgraded with LMG, laying on the ground.
AOE and cluttering will always go hand in hand. But hey, thats my opinion.
I dont get any wipes if my grens aren't cluttered. I dont see wipes when squads arent cluttered while casting. Therefore, I can conclude that it is a problem and it contributes to wiping potential, whether you like it or not or whether you think it makes "no sense".
Its not only the AOE, its both, and that doesnt only count for the Isu.
When your units clutter because they pass a narrow street and they hit a mine the squad gets wiped.
Does that mean the AOE is too big? No, the clutter and AOE was responsible for the wipe.
ISU has of course more AOE and will only wipe if the units clutter, and yes German units tend to clutter, specially when upgraded with LMG, laying on the ground.
AOE and cluttering will always go hand in hand. But hey, thats my opinion.
All posts made are about situations in 2v2's. Not a 1v1 player.
5 Sep 2014, 13:03 PM
#45
Posts: 122
@kreatiir
PAKs can't/don't clutter, but they get 1 shotted quite easily. That's the main problem.
"Fixing/tweaking" unit AI/cluttering is a lot more difficult and dramatic, than simply nerfing the AI of the ISU and buffing it's AT.
PAKs can't/don't clutter, but they get 1 shotted quite easily. That's the main problem.
"Fixing/tweaking" unit AI/cluttering is a lot more difficult and dramatic, than simply nerfing the AI of the ISU and buffing it's AT.
76561198140861243
5 Sep 2014, 13:08 PM
#46
Posts: 2819
Play more games?
Sorry but what are you even talking about?
I dont know you neither do you know me. If you would know me you would know I play tons of Soviet, thus also using the ISU. Does that make me an expert? No, but I have my opinion about it.
Wow, dat not making any sense to try to make a point.
I forget about the fact that you cant have a serious conversation here, glad you remind me.
E: well done editing your post, well done.
Sorry but what are you even talking about?
I dont know you neither do you know me. If you would know me you would know I play tons of Soviet, thus also using the ISU. Does that make me an expert? No, but I have my opinion about it.
Wow, dat not making any sense to try to make a point.
I forget about the fact that you cant have a serious conversation here, glad you remind me.
E: well done editing your post, well done.
All posts made are about situations in 2v2's. Not a 1v1 player.
5 Sep 2014, 13:27 PM
#47
Posts: 122
What are you on about? You reply 5mins after my edit instantly after my post, and I basically said you havent played enough if you think that wiping doesnt occur if you don't cluster. I figured I didnt want to argue. Yeah didnt even read the rest of my post. PAK wiping isn't an issue.
76561198140861243
5 Sep 2014, 13:48 PM
#48
Posts: 324 | Subs: 2
ISU wipes squads regularly, the big AOE means they dont even necessarily have to sit on each other. Sibs recent "Sweet Jesus" replay showed the impact it can have even on 6 men squads that are fairly spread out. There also was a Raketenwerfer in this game, trying to combat the ISU, which was the saddest thing i've seen in a long time.
I don't think relic is able to change the unit formation in a way that prevents squadwipes, the AI will always find a way to clump up.
Another solution would be to drastically reduce the one-shot killing potential of the ISU and add the side effect to "shellshock" every infantry unit in the near vacinity, giving them a short debuff in terms of movement and attack power - or simply straight out suppress. That way the ISU is good against infantry and fulfills its role, but not in an annoying squad-wipe way.
I don't think relic is able to change the unit formation in a way that prevents squadwipes, the AI will always find a way to clump up.
Another solution would be to drastically reduce the one-shot killing potential of the ISU and add the side effect to "shellshock" every infantry unit in the near vacinity, giving them a short debuff in terms of movement and attack power - or simply straight out suppress. That way the ISU is good against infantry and fulfills its role, but not in an annoying squad-wipe way.
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198041705871
"Axis can STALL2WIN to get to that late game, there is really no hope for USF competitively short of getting the best side of the best USF maps and being an order of magnitude better than your opponent." - SageOfTheSix, after losing to Jesulin's Ostheer on Semoskiy Winter
"Axis can STALL2WIN to get to that late game, there is really no hope for USF competitively short of getting the best side of the best USF maps and being an order of magnitude better than your opponent." - SageOfTheSix, after losing to Jesulin's Ostheer on Semoskiy Winter
5 Sep 2014, 14:00 PM
#49
Posts: 2070
Ok nerf ISU, having squad wipe is no fun, but can Soviets please get another option to destroy heavy tanks such as KT and Jagdtiger? At least the ISU gives Soviets a fighting chance (albeit a frustrating one for people to play against, but so is KT and jagdtiger)
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
5 Sep 2014, 14:04 PM
#50
Posts: 431
ISU is still a freewin on narrow maps as long as the germans don't get jagdtiger
5 Sep 2014, 14:38 PM
#51
Posts: 1439
Ok nerf ISU, having squad wipe is no fun, but can Soviets please get another option to destroy heavy tanks such as KT and Jagdtiger? At least the ISU gives Soviets a fighting chance (albeit a frustrating one for people to play against, but so is KT and jagdtiger)
How about IS-2 supported by ZiS? I use this combination all the time.
5 Sep 2014, 14:42 PM
#52
Posts: 2070
How about IS-2 supported by ZiS? I use this combination all the time.
That is a good combo OZ but of course we don't want to pigeon players into going the same commanders over and over just to get that tank they need to stomp heavies. The core units should already be okay. IMO commanders should add flavor and supplement your current army and not be "oh fuck I absolutely NEED this commander in order to win" type of thing
It might be like that for the OStheer as well, but I am not sure. Seems like people are saying that the only viable Ostheer strategy is just Grens-> PZ4 maybe-> Tiger Tank. That is just boring gameplay. Every other "cool" commander is thrown out because the only way players can compete with each other late game is with heavy tanks (at least that is what it seems like).
How does this relate back to the ISU? OKW have JGDTIGER and KT (nondoc lol), Ost have Tiger Tank, and USSR has ISU and IS2. I can only say this from a Soviet perspective since that is all have played so far. ISU and IS2 are needed to counter the heavies (same could be said from German perspective). EVery player needs to prepare for the late game because there is no sure chance that the game will be over at 20 minutes. These heavy call-ins are ONLY available in some commanders, making it almost a necessity to select them.
At least the Germans have a nice panther tank ( everyone says it needs fixing so that is okay), but at least the Panther is nondoc. Nerf the ISU, it is my favorite unit, but if it is OP, go ahead. I don't think nerfing the ISU will solve much of the "real" issue of heavy tanks being tied to commanders. Nerf the ISU, but please solve the structural issues of the game.
I think this will make gameplay so much better in COH2
1. Nerf ISU (but not sure what to do after that, maybe keep it in a commander?)
2. Move IS2, Tiger to nondoc unit selection (adjust balance accordingly)
3. Make t34/85 an upgrade
4. Move KT to commander so it becomes something like COH1)
5. Perhaps give OKW the Tiger tank, so they rely on Tigers and Panthers as their main armor
This is all wishful thinking of course but I think this could really open up diverse new strategies and make other commanders more worthwhile
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
5 Sep 2014, 15:21 PM
#53
Posts: 400
Currently every faction is pigeonholed into some commanders because X or Y. Soviets need a decent call in infantry (+ ideally T34/85, ISU or IS2), Wehrmacht has to get Tiger (or Elefant, but it is more situational), USF has to go rifle company to get EZ8, and Oberkommando has to ggo Breakthrough for JT (they also have stock KT, but JT is the better option most of the time).
So i think the problem lies in the heavies in general, and ISU is the flagship of this tank category, being a decent counter to its hard counters. That's the main issue here, if you take any other heavy, it is somewhat lacking in either AT or AI (well, not Tiger, but it is a 'balanced' heavy tank, it is outshined in both department by some other more specialized tank from the list). And usually in a RTS, if a unit is so strong it has no reliable counter (reliable being a whole different story than praying the RNG gods you don't get too many PAK or squad wipes), it deserves to be toned down. I'm not asking for ISU nerf, but i think it deserves it. The whole heavy tanks system need a rework too, but this is another subject: first bring ISU to the other heavies level, then balance the whole call in meta.
So i think the problem lies in the heavies in general, and ISU is the flagship of this tank category, being a decent counter to its hard counters. That's the main issue here, if you take any other heavy, it is somewhat lacking in either AT or AI (well, not Tiger, but it is a 'balanced' heavy tank, it is outshined in both department by some other more specialized tank from the list). And usually in a RTS, if a unit is so strong it has no reliable counter (reliable being a whole different story than praying the RNG gods you don't get too many PAK or squad wipes), it deserves to be toned down. I'm not asking for ISU nerf, but i think it deserves it. The whole heavy tanks system need a rework too, but this is another subject: first bring ISU to the other heavies level, then balance the whole call in meta.
5 Sep 2014, 15:24 PM
#54
Posts: 1705
Soviets also have t-34/85 which is a excellent medium tank,the pair can swarm and kill the tiger..especially with mark target.
With is-2 and t-34/85 even without isu soviets have 2 excellent options which can be supplemented by su-85s from the back or m4c shermans which is another good medium tank.
When ostheer is doing without ELefant,and relies only on tiger as its lategame tank which is basically equal or even slightly inferior to is-2 i don't see why soviets need both,plus the superb medium tanks call-in.is-2 is such a massive pain in the ass with its armor,if there's 2 they seem immortal.Even KT can't always penetrate them.
Jagdtiger-i agree,isu,elefant,jagd must be balanced together..leaving 1 while others are nerfed out breaks it.This is why i proposed make them 1 builadble at 15 cp and give them back the old range.1 godly unit comes very late,so not an auto appearnace every game..but a fearful presence with high risk and reward potential.
King tiger - So many soviet players fight this head on.Because they have gotten used to penetrating tiger and panther at close ranges frontally,many try this and fail badly.Its turret weakness is rarely exploited .Thing is this thing is so costly by the time OKW gets this allies can have 4 of their medium call-ins if their unit preservation was good.If they can't swarm its tortoise turret with that thats bad.
The difference between stock and call-in armor is too large in coh 2.
With is-2 and t-34/85 even without isu soviets have 2 excellent options which can be supplemented by su-85s from the back or m4c shermans which is another good medium tank.
When ostheer is doing without ELefant,and relies only on tiger as its lategame tank which is basically equal or even slightly inferior to is-2 i don't see why soviets need both,plus the superb medium tanks call-in.is-2 is such a massive pain in the ass with its armor,if there's 2 they seem immortal.Even KT can't always penetrate them.
Jagdtiger-i agree,isu,elefant,jagd must be balanced together..leaving 1 while others are nerfed out breaks it.This is why i proposed make them 1 builadble at 15 cp and give them back the old range.1 godly unit comes very late,so not an auto appearnace every game..but a fearful presence with high risk and reward potential.
King tiger - So many soviet players fight this head on.Because they have gotten used to penetrating tiger and panther at close ranges frontally,many try this and fail badly.Its turret weakness is rarely exploited .Thing is this thing is so costly by the time OKW gets this allies can have 4 of their medium call-ins if their unit preservation was good.If they can't swarm its tortoise turret with that thats bad.
The difference between stock and call-in armor is too large in coh 2.
5 Sep 2014, 15:29 PM
#55
Posts: 2070
Soviets also have t-34/85 which is a excellent medium tank,the pair can swarm and kill the tiger..especially with mark target.
With is-2 and t-34/85 even without isu soviets have 2 excellent options which can be supplemented by su-85s from the back or m4c shermans which is another good medium tank.
When ostheer is doing without ELefant,and relies only on tiger as its lategame tank which is basically equal or even slightly inferior to is-2 i don't see why soviets need both,plus the superb medium tanks call-in.is-2 is such a massive pain in the ass with its armor,if there's 2 they seem immortal.Even KT can't always penetrate them.
Jagdtiger-i agree,isu,elefant,jagd must be balanced together..leaving 1 while others are nerfed out breaks it.This is why i proposed make them 1 builadble at 15 cp and give them back the old range.1 godly unit comes very late,so not an auto appearnace every game..but a fearful presence with high risk and reward potential.
King tiger - So many soviet players fight this head on.Because they have gotten used to penetrating tiger and panther at close ranges frontally,many try this and fail badly.Its turret weakness is rarely exploited .Thing is this thing is so costly by the OKW gets this allies can have 4 of their medium call-ins if their unit preservation was good.If they can't swarm its tortoise turret with that thats bad.
of course balance changes will come if units get moved to nondoc (but I don't know if Relic will ever do this).
You offer an interesting solution Austerlitz. It probably is the easiest to implement without drastically altering the game. However, I think players will still choose those commanders since the supertank is still "there". It might turn out into something like the doctrines in COH1 which is cool, but COH2 is structured around a DLC system with many commanders. I think it is best if we change the game where all commanders are viable and not just several.
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
5 Sep 2014, 15:54 PM
#56
Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2
Hey we bitching about squad wipes up in here? Did any body mention the Walking Stuka yet? Good range, surviveability, building AND support weapon wipe. Might as well address them all, ya know?
The views and opinions expressed in my posts and topics are solely those of the Napalm. These views and opinions do not necessarily represent those of Relic, the developers, The Angry Bears and/or any/all contributors to this site.
5 Sep 2014, 16:43 PM
#57
Posts: 971
So i think the problem lies in the heavies in general, and ISU is the flagship of this tank category, being a decent counter to its hard counters. That's the main issue here, if you take any other heavy, it is somewhat lacking in either AT or AI (well, not Tiger, but it is a 'balanced' heavy tank, it is outshined in both department by some other more specialized tank from the list). And usually in a RTS, if a unit is so strong it has no reliable counter (reliable being a whole different story than praying the RNG gods you don't get too many PAK or squad wipes), it deserves to be toned down. I'm not asking for ISU nerf, but i think it deserves it. The whole heavy tanks system need a rework too, but this is another subject: first bring ISU to the other heavies level, then balance the whole call in meta.
+1 I also think that is the root of the problem.
Heavy tanks are designed in a way that you can effectively counter them only with another heavy tank. So, if an ISU appears and you don't have a Jadgtiger or Elefant commander, you are fucked.
EDIT: The game will be like that until non-doctrinal tanks can counter doctrinal tanks.
5 Sep 2014, 16:48 PM
#58
Posts: 207
Ok nerf ISU, having squad wipe is no fun, but can Soviets please get another option to destroy heavy tanks such as KT and Jagdtiger? At least the ISU gives Soviets a fighting chance (albeit a frustrating one for people to play against, but so is KT and jagdtiger)
Dude, you have literally played 54 games all as soviet all 4v4................ How in the name of god can you possibly have an opinion on balance!??? I mean no offence man but you are TOTALLY new to COH2. Please stop making very silly statements such as the above quote, you quite simply have no idea what you are talking about........
PS using an ISU as a counter to a JT is so so so so so so so so so so wrong.......
5 Sep 2014, 16:55 PM
#59
Posts: 262
Hey we bitching about squad wipes up in here? Did any body mention the Walking Stuka yet? Good range, surviveability, building AND support weapon wipe. Might as well address them all, ya know?
Well, it is kinda weird that building are so easy to destroy with stuka, survivability? What, they have smoke or blitz option that i don't know about?
They don't have super long range and cooldown is somewhat long (not saying that's a bad thing) so it's ok that they need something anti-armor to kill them fast.
But the raw power of stuka is not that strong, saw couple of times that even one model survived stuka attack and that one man was between two rockets that hit the ground
IMHO unit is very good, but the it is very expensive. And it will delay a panther, and especially if ur saving for King tiger/jagdtiger
In hoc signo vinces!
5 Sep 2014, 16:59 PM
#60
Posts: 747
Hey we bitching about squad wipes up in here? Did any body mention the Walking Stuka yet? Good range, surviveability, building AND support weapon wipe. Might as well address them all, ya know?
Imo the stuka barrage is the easiest to dodge amongst all onmap arty.
On topic;
The ISU combines too many strengths in one unit. Being well armored, long range anti Infantry and armor is just too much. Cut one of these attributes and we might get closer to a balanced unit.
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