Action Items: Balance Feedback Required!

Skinless & Cannonade, please keep it tidy and don't get personal.
You both have other opinions, respect it.

For those saying "Fix Con vs OKW" If Cons are in cover (Mostly green and depends on the yellow) and Sturms aren't and rush through no cover, Con's will win. Con's have very strong short range DPS, rushing sturms at cons usually won't win.

Yes, in a way.

Would mean less model deaths in start of engagement, but an increasing chance of a chain model wipe at low hps.
(Depending on how Cruzzs suggestion would cause the final "crit"required to kill a model.)

Seems reasonable to me though, as infantry shouldnt be hanging around at range soaking LMG damage in the first place.

It directly translates to less attrition during approach, but more if you are stupid enough to hang back soaking LMG raking fire.

As is currently, the LMGs single model targetting causes huge dmg to a single model, in addition to incidental rifle fire. Meaning you lose models at a constant, high rate, due to rifle firing adding to the LMGs burst, to each one model in turn.

If the LMG dmg was generalised across the unit, you can soak it on approach without losing models (and hence, your own DPS output) though upon arrival your unit, overall, will have less hp, you are now at a range where your infantry weapons are more effective.

Its an ingenious solution with an intermix of dis/advantage that I think is perfect for playing to the strengths of both the side using the LMG, and the one engaging them.

TLDR: Would take much less model attrition on approach, which directly translates to having more models to bare DPS, once you reach optimum range and good cover. But, also retains Osts advantage, in that if they can stay at range, they will eventually drain units overall hp pool in a general fashion so far, that an assault at that point would result in models dropping like flies.

Its a significant buff to opponents vs LMG, IF they make their approach immediately, as compared to now.
Its a significant buff to Ost, IF they can retain range and apply the LMGs general fire for long enough to make the enemy unit very vulnerable to model wipes, as compared to now.

Its brilliant. Well done Cruzz!

Edited to add: Some concern relating to overlapping LMG fire. But, still, as compared to now, you would still take less immediate model losses on assault. At this moment, the single targetting of LMG just chews the fk out of one model at a time, with the biggest penalty feom that being you lose effective DPS before you are finally close enough.

It was horrible idea in COH OF and it will be terrible idea here. What you are saying doesn't sound wrong in this example, but across the game in other instances it would wreck havoc.

For example, Having Unit and healing bunker would make that unit very powerful for example as opposed to unit that has to run back to HQ to heal, it would allow someone to exploit extra survivability to max with medic bunker, keeping constant pressure without losing any models. It would create further imbalances throughout the game.

I repeat again, it was terrible in OF COH

For those saying "Fix Con vs OKW" If Cons are in cover (Mostly green and depends on the yellow) and Sturms aren't and rush through no cover, Con's will win. Con's have very strong short range DPS, rushing sturms at cons usually won't win.

Why don't you suppress them first then move in, like everyone else does?

Skinless & Cannonade, please keep it tidy and don't get personal.
You both have other opinions, respect it.

I havent gotten personal and have been respectful to an extreme in an attempt of keeping the discussion ontopic.

Dont paint me with that same brush. Its not warranted.

It was horrible idea in COH OF and it will be terrible idea here. What you are saying doesn't sound wrong in this example, but across the game in other instances it would wreck havoc.

For example, Having Unit and healing bunker would make that unit very powerful for example as opposed to unit that has to run back to HQ to heal, it would allow someone to exploit extra survivability to max with medic bunker, keeping constant pressure without losing any models. It would create further imbalances throughout the game.

I repeat again, it was terrible in OF COH

Can you please explain how a generalised LMG dmg, rather than it chewing one model to death at a time, is related to your post?

I dont get it. Please give a scenario in which what you talk above would happen against an LMG?

Furthermore, MG42 has a version of this proposed change by Cruzz already in effect.
Its DPS and suppression factor (iirc) is directly related to and scaled by how many models it is firing at.
So a precedent, of sorts, already exists.

Soviet Support Weapons:

1) -Reduce all to 4man.
OR
2) -Reduce model hp so it is overall same as a 4man.

I tend to prefer the second, because it:
A) Doesnt mess with Merge as much (though Merging models lose hp in the exchange)
B) Reduces nuke potential.
C) Is more of a middle ground solution.

...

this will make at gun and maxim crew members to drop their weapons even more so than right now. so i do not think that is a good idea.

Why don't you suppress them first then move in, like everyone else does?

I do, I was just giving an example, and it is very hard to suppress a squad in Green Cover - unless one model decides it wants to stand in the open for whatever reason and get the whole squad suppressed =P

this will make at gun and maxim crew members to drop their weapons even more so than right now. so i do not think that is a good idea.

A 4man unit would drop the weapon at exactly the same rate as till now.

A 6man unit with 4man equivalency in hps would indeed drop it more often, but that can secondarily be fixed by changing the time needed for another model to man the weapon (and this pretty much only applies to Maxim/Dushka). Overall, though I think it is a minor concern, as it happens quite fast already as is now.

(With one notable exception, which is persistant ground flame effects. An MG weapon that loses its gunner in a Molotov or MHT Flame round, suffers horrificaly as man after man tries to reman the gun and catches fire.)

What's point of the making powerfull unit more powerfull ?

I never beat or win against riflesquad as OKW. They were good but now they are better. Volks can't do anything and Mg's too and you give them free vet level 0 CP.

I'm not saying kill the Rifleman Squad or make them brain-dead squad. Just lower their power to make them equal.

Or remove the OKW and Ostheer from the game. USF and Soviet have massive field effects. Katyushka is 80 fuel E8 for 9 CP and AT guns and Panzerchrecks can't damage them. It's easy win at 1v1 as USF. There's no fun at all. By the way, Volks failed vs. Rifleman Squad, Volks and AT guns failed vs. E8, as always USF win easy. That muni. improvment can't help. Looks like Dev Team never played this game at all or They are always playing USF.

I don't hate USF and Soviet but you just make them too powerfull and killing the other two. That's why the serching for Axis %0 and Allies %100 now.

Edit:Missspelling


Edit: You really broke the game with the new Commander and unit upgrade. I'm wondering really bad how you deal with fucking rifleman vet squad ?

What's point of the making powerfull unit more powerfull ?

I never beat or win against riflesquad as OKW. They were good but now they are better. Volks can't do anything and Mg's too and you give them free vet level 0 CP.

I'm not saying kill the Rifleman Squad or make them brain-dead squad. Just lower their power to make them equal.

Or remove the OKW and Ostheer from the game. USF and Soviet have massive field effects. Katyushka is 80 fuel E8 for 9 CP and AT guns and Panzerchrecks can't damage them. It's easy win at 1v1 as USF. There's no fun at all. By the way, Volks failed vs. Rifleman Squad, Volks and AT guns failed vs. E8, as always USF win easy. That muni. improvment can't help. Looks like Dev Team never played this game at all or They are always playing USF.

I don't hate USF and Soviet but you just make them too powerfull and killing the other two. That's why the serching for Axis %0 and Allies %100 now.

Edit:Missspelling

If you can't win against rifle squad you are doing something wrong. Either you aren't using Kubels for suppression, aren't paring sturms with Volks, together they eat rifles (Also need to focus fire on them), or you aren't moving/using sturms correctly, as they can beat rifles early game 1:1.

Kreatiir:

Think you missed my question here:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/20942/action-items-balance-feedback-required/post/187369

If you can't win against rifle squad you are doing something wrong. Either you aren't using Kubels for suppression, aren't paring sturms with Volks, together they eat rifles (Also need to focus fire on them), or you aren't moving/using sturms correctly, as they can beat rifles early game 1:1.

it's not a problem in early game. I bait volks and flank them from behind with Sturmpineer. The problem is the new patch and their Vet 1 rifleman. 2 Rifleman vet 1 squads can take down 2 volks and sturmpioneer even sturmpioneer approach them from back. There's no way to win against them. If you win as OKW that's just because your oppent has no rank at all and newbie. You fucking buff Katyushkas, giving riflemen squad vet 1 and E8 in mid game. Come and solve this puzzle as OKW. if you want I can show how's rifleman squad spam and those mortars always hit perfect. Then here comes the E8 spam and your 2 at guns can do like %5 damage.

Okay, Commander wins the game. I played 2 games and last one I faced didn't use the Elite Rifleman Company Commander or whatever its name is.

I like the idea of putting vet riflemen at 1 or 2 cp with the current cost. That way you are getting a slightly more vet squad than what the enemy has out there at a slightly increased cost and as a call in there is no build time. Keeps the commander useful.

Maxims already have the worst retreat animation so going down two troops would seal their fate even if you hit retreat the second you see a bad situation developing. Also rifle grenades.

Long range dps I think with basic units the values are fine. If volks or regular grens get a good position charging them with one squad will be bad news. That is how the game should play "I think". Volks seem to be underperforming in this regard. I think obersoldaten are overperforming. If caught out of position by a US infantry ball they can still insta-kill 2 riflemen with a mg34 burst bringing the squad to half health and retreat before losing a model. So they can cause a 58 manpower drain and a probable squad retreat even if they get totally outmaneuvered. I get that they should be beasts but maybe the mg34 should be nerfed a little. I don't know enough about fusiliers or jeager squads to comment but they seem to be rubbing people the wrong way too.

Which units, specifically, are you referring to?

The 120 and DHSK will get caught in a retreat loop. A new crew member will take the weapon and get killed. This continues in a loop while the unit is not falling back.

Elite Rifleman: Cool down at the beggining, OK, but what about cold down for Assault Grens? More powerful that 1vet Rifleman in first 1-4mins.

Elite Rifleman: As long as the rifles aren't being spammeda vet 2. Just make them vet 1 and it should be fine.

Soviet Weapon Team: This has needed to be fixed for a long time. 6 man mg squads are just a very bad idea. What downside is there to getting them, when a player who can micro can make sure they survive almost every engagement? I suggest reducing the mg squad to 5 man squads and slightly nerfing the supression. Alternatively, simply make them a 4 man squad.

Long Range Combat: PLEASE be careful here. The only close combat squad that is underperforming are the PanzerGrenadiers. Simply give them some armor like the Shock Troops and everything should be ok. You MUST consider the fact that all long range troops lose effectiveness throughout the game -- long range units have to sit still and can easily be wiped out by artillery, wheras close combat squads are constantly moving.

Hey Guys,

Design Team is currently reviewing a few key balance complaints in the game and we would like your feedback

Disclaimer: Everything you read below is work in progress and not guaranteed to go into the game.

Elite Rifleman:
At the moment this ability provides no real downfall to its usage except for its long recharge time. We implemented slight cost increase as well as starting it on a cool down. However we are currently exploring possible redesigns of the ability such as increasing the rate in which rifleman will accumulate Veterancy.

Soviet Weapon Team:
This has been a hot topic for a while but we are experimenting with 4 men Soviet Weapon Teams. Issue being they are too durable. If a 4 men team loses 2 men, chances of losing that whole squad would go up exponentially. When a 6 men squad loses 2 men the chances of losing that squad still remain fairly low. If overall performances needs to be compensated for reduced durability that is something we could also explore.

Long Range Combat:
With our change to lethality in a previous update to make cover more important. A side effect of that change was that it made long range weapons extremely effective, especially LMGs. The combination of cover, lethality, and long range has resulted in medium to short range units being overall less effective. In most situation, units that require closer range will lose too many men on approach resulting in a significant drop in offensive performance.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated and thank you!

The 120 and DHSK will get caught in a retreat loop. A new crew member will take the weapon and get killed. This continues in a loop while the unit is not falling back.

Thanks. I thought the 120mm weapon man was last to die though.

Nonetheless, my question still stands to the original poster I put it to for confirmation of what he meant in the context of therest of his post.

Maxims already have the worst retreat animation so going down two troops would seal their fate even if you hit retreat the second you see a bad situation developing.

How is the animation different from Ost MG42?