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Elite Mod Continues - Version 2.2+

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6 Feb 2014, 20:10 PM
#21
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862


Lets be honest, EliteMod and other COH mods will never really go anywhere. The best we could ever hope for is a polished balance patch that we can hand over to Relic and beg pretty please for them to do one last balance patch to fix sniperspam, stags, etc


This times 10!

Fix the things that are broken (m10, stag MG, other exploits like storms).

Make only very minor tweaks (Sniperspam? Jeep? A point on rifle reinforce? A couple of points on AB? Bomb Run can kill StuH/StuGs again? Move the Wehr Officer to HQ?).

DO LITTLE and maybe, maybe, maybe it will be implemented. Do little and it won't affect game play too much, but at the margin it mgiht just feel better.
6 Feb 2014, 20:54 PM
#22
avatar of Fanatic
Patrion 14

Posts: 480 | Subs: 1

6 Feb 2014, 22:29 PM
#23
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1



Am I correct to understand this as a tank veterancy buff? In such case it should be reverted and done in the other direction - the tank mg gunners should be nerfed. Particularly their suppression.


Yes that would be a buff to the MG of the Panzer IV and Panther.
Why?
Because the Stug and Stuh MG (which is MG42 Vehicle same as halftrack) deals
25% more damage and double suppression.
(you see the latter I nerfed a little in one of my lists.)

Additionally, Stug gets 1.15x health bonus and Stuh gets 0.85x received penetration.

Panther and Panzer IV get nothing at all. Just a crappier MG. People that go for tank veterancy with Tier 4 units are not being rewarded properly for their investment.


I do believe wm t3 really needs to be looked at and tuned down. As well as some other minor issues like wm ht supression rate, t1 changes from last patch etc.


Puma I agree with you, it's seems a bit random and i actually already mentioned to remove the 5 procent green health crit. Other than that it's a bit tricky to change Puma crit tables, given it's a combination of a burst weapon and a tank weapon.
But I definitely agree the damage spread needs to be more even and I was already playing around with a few ideas in my mind. Something with less damage, less cooldown
One thing I would/will remove certainly is the cooldown modifier on the move. It's a system that fails.

Tier 1 changes hmm ... I don't know, maybe cutting some corners on the volk scaling like their insane sight range bonus at vet 2, and that capping bonus if tier 2 is reseached, a bit tuning on their mp40's ... . And slight sniper nerfs. Other than that I really can't see a thing to be changed.
Or one would have to redefine volksgrenadiers, cheaper and weaker. But I wouldn't make such drastic changes.

I think we need to look at grenspam a bit


Hmm, maybe. Maybe we need to look at zeal (and ftfl) instead. Or maybe we need to look at mortars, flamethrowers and such things.
Btw Croc is an absolute beast vs tier 2 strats. Just sad no one build it in the broadcasted games.


Lets be honest, EliteMod and other COH mods will never really go anywhere.


Well if it would work it would be awesome.
But personally I already find it challenging working on it. And I just wanna try and get the full potential out of COH before it goes to the museum.

6 Feb 2014, 22:38 PM
#24
avatar of Guderian

Posts: 155

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2014, 22:29 PM12ocky


Yes that would be a buff to the MG of the Panzer IV and Panther.
Why?
Because the Stug and Stuh MG (which is MG42 Vehicle same as halftrack) deals
25% more damage and double suppression.
(you see the latter I nerfed a little in one of my lists.)

Additionally, Stug gets 1.15x health bonus and Stuh gets 0.85x received penetration.

Panther and Panzer IV get nothing at all. Just a crappier MG. People that go for tank veterancy with Tier 4 units are not being rewarded properly for their investment.



Ah, didn't know they were different bonuses. Yeah its good for t4 units but then we need to tweak stug/stuh bonuses.
6 Feb 2014, 23:38 PM
#25
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1


On an unrelated note, I really like kch giving away less vet. Maybe make tank depot cheaper again (300/90) like in beta? This would mean more US tanks so wehr T4 would also be more useful.


Hmm, I really really really want that to, but I can't right now. Definitely need to establish some Wehr tier 4 buffs aswell then. (and keep the same Stug)

After buffs, who nkows we might actually change vet 1 on US tanks a little.
7 Feb 2014, 00:06 AM
#26
avatar of Symbiosis

Posts: 862

After playing the tourney I feel that the new spread for the Airborne bombing run is really nice with 10 bombs now, though it might be a bit too good now. Main reason for this is not the damage output but the impossibility to dodge it. A slight delay between smoke and actual bombdown is necessary imo.

Also, touching the t4's from both armies might improve 1v1 balance with, say 1% yet completely tilt 2v2 balance. Please keep that in mind.
7 Feb 2014, 02:35 AM
#27
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

Hmm the delay ... its hard because if you use it in center semois for example its quite a delay. It depends on the map.

I don't think 2v2's will be that much screwed from some tweaks.
7 Feb 2014, 09:58 AM
#28
avatar of Pepsi

Posts: 621 | Subs: 1

I would test anything.

Is it possible to tweak the infantry's collisions with vehicles ?
I'd love to see the auto-dodge turned off and so friendly tank crush turned on.
10 Feb 2014, 21:58 PM
#29
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

Still not convinced which way the mod should go, but I'll try to restart discussion with a potential changelog for a new version.

Bug fixes for 2.3:
- Snipers no longer fire twice rapidly when reloading their weapon
- Casualties no longer detect camouflaged units
- Inspired Assault now works properly on MG42s and Mortars, and does not apply penalties to Paks or Nebels

Possible changes to add in 2.3:
- Reduced the supression of the mg42_vehicle weapon (Halftrack, Stug) by 50% (it still does double the supression and 20% more damage than the PIV mg42. Not nerfed enough?)
- Reduced Nebelwerfer movement speed from 2.75 to 2
- Removed the Puma's 5% chance to kill infantry targets at high health

Possible changes to remove in 2.3:
- Return WM T4 costs to vanilla
- Return FtFL to vanilla
- Return Inspired Assault to vanilla (outside above bugfix)

The reason the Puma is so inconsistent is because of its accuracy. 50%. You can run up a lot of hits in a row, or a lot of misses. If we really wanted to address it, we should consider increasing its accuracy but lowering its damage.

I'm trying to cut out some of the filler, changes that sound good but have very little impact. The Nebel change above might fall under that category, but it sounds really good on paper so it's worth a try.
11 Feb 2014, 01:30 AM
#30
avatar of Guderian

Posts: 155

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Feb 2014, 21:58 PMKolaris
Still not convinced which way the mod should go, but I'll try to restart discussion with a potential changelog for a new version.

Bug fixes for 2.3:
- Snipers no longer fire twice rapidly when reloading their weapon
- Casualties no longer detect camouflaged units
- Inspired Assault now works properly on MG42s and Mortars, and does not apply penalties to Paks or Nebels

Possible changes to add in 2.3:
- Reduced the supression of the mg42_vehicle weapon (Halftrack, Stug) by 50% (it still does double the supression and 20% more damage than the PIV mg42. Not nerfed enough?)
- Reduced Nebelwerfer movement speed from 2.75 to 2
- Removed the Puma's 5% chance to kill infantry targets at high health

Possible changes to remove in 2.3:
- Return WM T4 costs to vanilla
- Return FtFL to vanilla
- Return Inspired Assault to vanilla (outside above bugfix)

The reason the Puma is so inconsistent is because of its accuracy. 50%. You can run up a lot of hits in a row, or a lot of misses. If we really wanted to address it, we should consider increasing its accuracy but lowering its damage.

I'm trying to cut out some of the filler, changes that sound good but have very little impact. The Nebel change above might fall under that category, but it sounds really good on paper so it's worth a try.


I think the vehicle mg should be nerfed even more. E.g. same as the P4 one you mentioned. Other then that all changes seem right to the point.
11 Feb 2014, 17:27 PM
#31
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1



I think the vehicle mg should be nerfed even more. E.g. same as the P4 one you mentioned. Other then that all changes seem right to the point.


Why would you want to nerf it to the ground? You find it really that OP?
11 Feb 2014, 17:39 PM
#32
avatar of Kiraye

Posts: 30

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Feb 2014, 17:27 PM12ocky


Why would you want to nerf it to the ground? You find it really that OP?


The vetted Stug in its current state is quite THE best all-rounder vehicle, cost based its better than get them than Panthers for AT duties and the high suppression on the MG enable to act as very decent AI and coupled with its low cost and and popcap (4!) its quite spammable and this is the one of the main reasons the WM T4 is skipped I think.
11 Feb 2014, 18:01 PM
#33
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

Yes ofc, so increase the low veterancy scaling on T4 tanks, instead of nerfing Wehr.

+ yes needs popcap 6
12 Feb 2014, 00:52 AM
#34
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2014, 22:29 PM12ocky


Yes that would be a buff to the MG of the Panzer IV and Panther.
Why?
Because the Stug and Stuh MG (which is MG42 Vehicle same as halftrack) deals
25% more damage and double suppression.
(you see the latter I nerfed a little in one of my lists.)

Additionally, Stug gets 1.15x health bonus and Stuh gets 0.85x received penetration.

Panther and Panzer IV get nothing at all. Just a crappier MG. People that go for tank veterancy with Tier 4 units are not being rewarded properly for their investment.


You know why pIV/Panther gets just a "crappy MG" on tank vet 2 and StuGs get better bonuses?

Because those tanks have better guns, a turret, better speed/maneuverability than the StuG and 600/742 base health compared to 400 for the StuG.
Tank vet offers StuGs additional bonuses to make them scale against AT guns, Paratroopers with RR and M10. Since they have no turret they get this additional survivability instead.

It's just like with infantry vet. If you want to get the real bonus you have to tech all the way to vet 3 tanks. Those armour skirts make axis t4 tanks ridiculously hard to take down.

You know how you can fix this easily? Just switch the mg42 slot items from pIV/Panther with those from the StuG IV. Problem solved.

Puma I agree with you, it's seems a bit random and i actually already mentioned to remove the 5 procent green health crit. Other than that it's a bit tricky to change Puma crit tables, given it's a combination of a burst weapon and a tank weapon.
But I definitely agree the damage spread needs to be more even and I was already playing around with a few ideas in my mind. Something with less damage, less cooldown
One thing I would/will remove certainly is the cooldown modifier on the move. It's a system that fails.

Tier 1 changes hmm ... I don't know, maybe cutting some corners on the volk scaling like their insane sight range bonus at vet 2, and that capping bonus if tier 2 is reseached, a bit tuning on their mp40's ... . And slight sniper nerfs. Other than that I really can't see a thing to be changed.
Or one would have to redefine volksgrenadiers, cheaper and weaker. But I wouldn't make such drastic changes.

Why change so much? Just increase Volks reinforce cost back to something like 26 instead of these ridiculously low 22 mp they cost at the moment to reinforce. Volks were meant to have higher reinforcement costs while having low upkeep, riflemen the other way around.

I have no idea why someone thought this 28->22 mp change would be a good idea at all.

About snipers: Sure, increase their reload/cooldown values by 1second. It makes the snipers less strong without hurting too much.

About the puma: The puma gun is incredibly hard to tweak. I've spent weeks in the past to balance the Panzer II Luchs gun for the Ostheer (uses the same 20mm autocannon as the puma). It's a nightmare really... If you don't want to test for hours I'd suggest you just leave it as it is.

Howver, just an advice if you actually want to do it: I'd go for lower burst duration + changes to reload time/frequency + tweaking the cooldown multipliers for different ranges. It seems like those are responsible for the weird squad fuks on close range in > 2 seconds.


Hmm, maybe. Maybe we need to look at zeal (and ftfl) instead. Or maybe we need to look at mortars, flamethrowers and such things.
Btw Croc is an absolute beast vs tier 2 strats. Just sad no one build it in the broadcasted games.

Zeal doesn't really affect volks, the main bonuses are concentrated on values that lmg42 grenadiers and kch utilize. About ftfl: it's sort of fine I think, just nerf Volksgrenadiers :D

Edit, just to make my point more clear:
The fact that t3 is so overwhelmingly strong atm is also a result of Wehr t1 being strong also. It has always been the case with wehr that you could fasttech to t3 when you got more than 4 t1 units onto the field. Now, with bikes, volks, mg42 buffs it's much easier for wehr to apply pressure to US than the other way around, because US sort of needs BARs/grenades to fight your infantry properly. This delays fast motorpool which would be a decent counter to a puma. So, for Wehr there's no need to get t2 instead of t3. And if a Wehr player already has t3 he won't need t4 anymore, because t3 and t4 contain similar units - more powerful, but much more expensive, so it's not worth to invest 100fuel into t4, because you can just get another stug + tank vet 2 for that, which will be better in a 1v1.

Also, t2 is sort of bad because of snipers being super efficient against grens.

So, in order to make t4 attractive again, you need to nerf Wehr t1 to create an urge to tech to t2 and nerf snipers.
12 Feb 2014, 05:22 AM
#35
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

I'm with you as far as a strong WM T1 has shifted the BAR/M8 choice more in favor of BARs, which can translate to T3 being more attractive.

I don't agree that a player who goes T2 heavy will elect to go T4 over T3, because you'd rather have T3 + Vet 2 Grens than T4 + Vet 0 Grens. You see T2 > T4 when the WM player gets to sit in T2 for 15-20 minutes, which usually means the game isn't that close.

I think 50% rather than 25% on the HT/StuG MGs, along with 6 pop cap StuGs (which plays into Guderians point about how easy they are to spam) is the best place to start.
12 Feb 2014, 14:29 PM
#36
avatar of AmiPolizeiFunk
Admin Black Badge
Patrion 15

Posts: 16695 | Subs: 12

Great to see you continue to work on this, Kolaris. Your perception of COH game design has always been spot on, and I agree completely with the poster that mentioned you have a great "trust-aura"! IMO you shouldn't worry about whether or not Relic may accept this patch and make it official, as we all know the chances are slim. IMO you should do whatever you feel will make COH the best and most competitive game that you can. I would love to see more tourneys on this mod in the future.

I'm really interested in how your OBSmode looks with the enemy units appearing within the FoW. Do you have a youtube vid, or has someone made a cast yet using this new feature? Is it possible that modders could add other obs features like enemy resources display, enemy army display, and/or production tabs?
12 Feb 2014, 15:15 PM
#37
avatar of Kiraye

Posts: 30

Great to see you continue to work on this, Kolaris. Your perception of COH game design has always been spot on, and I agree completely with the poster that mentioned you have a great "trust-aura"! IMO you shouldn't worry about whether or not Relic may accept this patch and make it official, as we all know the chances are slim. IMO you should do whatever you feel will make COH the best and most competitive game that you can. I would love to see more tourneys on this mod in the future.

I'm really interested in how your OBSmode looks with the enemy units appearing within the FoW. Do you have a youtube vid, or has someone made a cast yet using this new feature? Is it possible that modders could add other obs features like enemy resources display, enemy army display, and/or production tabs?


Well I've been heavily extending the OBS mode on my own. I've been able to add Observer abilities for changing team whenever they observer want it, plus manpower resources display for both player. (plus minor things like camera starts at the original map start location not at the maps edge, observer resources stay at 0, etc)
As my SCAR knowledge deepens every day, I will be able to add more fun things to it.

Here's few screens:
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/140212/relic00018_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/140212/relic00019_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg
(the second screen is taken few seconds later)
12 Feb 2014, 15:36 PM
#38
avatar of AmiPolizeiFunk
Admin Black Badge
Patrion 15

Posts: 16695 | Subs: 12

Since you're blanking the resources stats at the normal position, would it be possible to make that useful space instead? Could you put the resources of the player that we are "following" so-to-speak in that area? Could the enemy resources fit there too? Space is precious, so it'd be great if that space could be used, and less of the space over actual game window.
12 Feb 2014, 17:14 PM
#39
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1



It's nice to be able to check on the other player, although Tommy found looking through the grayscale fog really annoying.

Personally when this option is available (DoW2, SC2) I use it over FoW off. I still think shared LoS is the best option for casters, but I think that's beyond our capabilities. But maybe Kiraye can come up with something. I know nothing about SCaR.

EDIT: Probably should have taken a shot on Langres or Angoville. Semois is dark to begin with and the FoW magnifies it.
12 Feb 2014, 19:59 PM
#40
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1



Because those tanks have better guns, a turret, better speed/maneuverability than the StuG and 600/742 base health compared to 400 for the StuG.
Yes and they don't get to be seen in competitive play. Because not as efficient. Stug scaling + their cheaper costs makes them much more attractive. And other than nerfing the suppression and adding popcap (which I wrote ages ago on my list btw xp) I don't see use in nerfing them just because current US is actually good equipped at taking them out. Just the US manpower buff and M10 misfire fix did a lot too balance. I just think you guys are still a bit in 2.602.

It's just like with infantry vet. If you want to get the real bonus you have to tech all the way to vet 3 tanks. Those armour skirts make axis t4 tanks ridiculously hard to take down.
Mwaaaah, I do think the vet 2 bonus of the Stug is superior to the vet 3 bonus. Vet 3 is only really needed vs vetted riflemen stickies.



You know how you can fix this easily? Just switch the mg42 slot items from pIV/Panther with those from the StuG IV. Problem solved.

And switch their rotations, but once again i'm more up for making them more equal to each other.

Why change so much? Just increase Volks reinforce cost back to something like 26 instead of these ridiculously low 22 mp they cost at the moment to reinforce.

Well I hated that shit from teh beta on, but the thing is the volks reinforce cost actually turn out to be a change for the better. If you lose one single fight it's not the end of the world. I remember games in 2.601 that meant the game was lost for 90% if you lost first volks engagement.


About snipers: Sure, increase their reload/cooldown values by 1second. It makes the snipers less strong without hurting too much
Reload needs a bigger increase the 11th shot and 6th shot are a joke. I believe Kolaris actually just removed reload and reload frequency.

About the puma: The puma gun is incredibly hard to tweak. I've spent weeks in the past to balance the Panzer II Luchs gun for the Ostheer (uses the same 20mm autocannon as the puma). It's a nightmare really... If you don't want to test for hours I'd suggest you just leave it as it is.
Then I got lucky cause with my 3rd version. I think I got a pretty satisfying result. Just removed burst completely and made cooldown very low. High reload frequency 'to spread the dps'

Zeal doesn't really affect volks
euhm? whut?
Ftfl: can't disagree more. Although Tommy's version is almost okayish.

The fact that t3 is so overwhelmingly strong atm is also a result of Wehr t1 being strong also. It has always been the case with wehr that you could fasttech to t3 when you got more than 4 t1 units onto the field..
Bars / grenades are all in tools which are capable of completely destroying this strategy. But if failed micro, you are going down yes.
Fast M8 into wsc tech punishes this play. That's actually the reason players like Seph, Symbiosis, Devm do this in about every game.


Also, t2 is sort of bad because of snipers being super efficient against grens.
Tier 2 terror dominated the tournament choicewise, it's far from being bad.

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