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russian armor

Soviets and German Infantry

16 Dec 2018, 09:39 AM
#1
avatar of Hectoir

Posts: 16

Permanently Banned
Dear coh2 players,

lately I have been facing Ostheer Infantry Doctrine builds quite often and so far I have not been successful against them.

I have rather mixed feelings and I feel quite desperate every time I see this doctrine in enemy's commander loadout. The doctrine gives Ostheer such an immense momentum early on that Soviets cannot really compete against it. This allows Ostheer to access their superiour armor sooner than Soviets can field their weaker, yet to be meant sooner-arriving, counterparts.

Once 250 halftrack - the new Axis clown car - is deployed, Soviets can respond to it in two way. Either research anti-tank grenades or call-in Guard troops. If one choses the first, he can forget acquiring t70 or t34 before Ostheer deploys Panzer IV. The second option will hinder one's competitiveness in AI department, because without Shocks troops it is impossible to fight-off Stormtruppen.

Even if one manages to survive Soviet early game against this build order, he is still doomed to face superior Axis tanks later on. After all, it's no secret that Panzer IV and Stug are superior to T34 and Su76.

And if one decides, to stay on defensive and wait for late-game heavy, he must expect facing Panthers.


Alright, you can see my desperation from my long text, but that does not mean I want to nerf German Infantry Doctrine into ground or rant about the balance. All I need is some good feedback, so the next time I see this commander in enemy's loadout I would not lose all my hope of winning the match.

Any productive feedback is welcome :)
Yours sincerely,
Hectoir.
16 Dec 2018, 14:09 PM
#2
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 184

I think a replay might be more useful to see where you went wrong. The Panzer IV usually arrives later then the T-34 or has less support behind it (incase you are describing a t2 skip with a 250/1 build from the HQ).

The SU-76 and the Stug (III) G are in different tiers the SU-76 has a range advantage (60 to 50) can spot for itself with vet1 and detect cloaked units nearby but has lower damage (120 at vet0 compared to 160 at vet0) and lower HP (400 - 640) if you use the SU-76 barrage aswell you also have a nice tools vs teamweapons or clumped infantry squads.

With this perks the SU-76 usually can do pretty well as a ZiS-3 replacement if you went T1 and don't want to backtech but hence it is fragile and needs spotters to use the range advantage vs Panthers or Stugs you should support it with Conscripts, Penals or Guards.

The T-34 usually gets quite a lot done if it doesn't have to fight the Panzer IV head-on and gets a little Anti-Tank support like ptrs fire, snare s or AT-guns.

If your enemy is skipping the T2 as Ostheer you should always abuse the lack of AT options and fight with you M3A1 that can only be killed by snares or mines (mines get swept, snares kited) or the bigger brother the M5 either as Giant Clowncar with 2 flamers or as Meatgrinder with the Quadmount upgrade (usually goes down to 2 atgun shots now can withstand 3 fausts and still survive). If you want to invest in the T70 you should try to get some better AT-Options so you can fight off or scare Ostwinds or Panzer IVs best way would be backteching to t2 if you cannot get amazing mapcontrol with it.
16 Dec 2018, 15:14 PM
#3
avatar of Hectoir

Posts: 16

Permanently Banned
I think a replay might be more useful to see where you went wrong. The Panzer IV usually arrives later then the T-34 or has less support behind it (incase you are describing a t2 skip with a 250/1 build from the HQ).

The SU-76 and the Stug (III) G are in different tiers the SU-76 has a range advantage (60 to 50) can spot for itself with vet1 and detect cloaked units nearby but has lower damage (120 at vet0 compared to 160 at vet0) and lower HP (400 - 640) if you use the SU-76 barrage aswell you also have a nice tools vs teamweapons or clumped infantry squads.

With this perks the SU-76 usually can do pretty well as a ZiS-3 replacement if you went T1 and don't want to backtech but hence it is fragile and needs spotters to use the range advantage vs Panthers or Stugs you should support it with Conscripts, Penals or Guards.

The T-34 usually gets quite a lot done if it doesn't have to fight the Panzer IV head-on and gets a little Anti-Tank support like ptrs fire, snare s or AT-guns.

If your enemy is skipping the T2 as Ostheer you should always abuse the lack of AT options and fight with you M3A1 that can only be killed by snares or mines (mines get swept, snares kited) or the bigger brother the M5 either as Giant Clowncar with 2 flamers or as Meatgrinder with the Quadmount upgrade (usually goes down to 2 atgun shots now can withstand 3 fausts and still survive). If you want to invest in the T70 you should try to get some better AT-Options so you can fight off or scare Ostwinds or Panzer IVs best way would be backteching to t2 if you cannot get amazing mapcontrol with it.


Hi BeastHunter,

thank you for a quick reply :)

To be frank, my intentions are not to post a replay but rather to conduct a discussion about the problem in theory. The reason behind my decision is that one always makes mistakes during every match and often is also conscious about them. Yet he also knows that some mistakes will be made in the next match as well because we are humans not machines.

What I need is to know is whether or not the Soviet player can be on par with German infantry during the early game.

I am very thankful for your time and effort but a thorough analysis of the early game would be much more appreciated than the one about mid game vehicle fights.

I believe my problem is deep-rooted in the early game and thus I always go into the mid game handicapped. That's why insightful analysis about tank match-ups isn't so helpful for me.

Could you be please do kind and rather help me with the early game strategy against this build order ?

Yours,
Hectoir
16 Dec 2018, 15:39 PM
#4
avatar of Rubberluck

Posts: 33

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Dec 2018, 09:39 AMHectoir
)
Yours sincerely,
Hectoir.


This isn't a Victorian era letter-in-the-mail, dude. Just ask your question :rofl:
16 Dec 2018, 15:45 PM
#5
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 184

So your troubles start at 2 CP or with the rushed 250/1 halftrack? I think this is exactly where a replay would help as i do not know how you start your games and how you play your options.

If you do T1 openings you should focus on the M3A1 Halftrack use it to scout enemy HMGs (50 sight range) kite enemy infantry and self repair it with flamer engineers that improve its short range damage against single squads that you can easily rush as a single panzerfaust and a bit of small arms fire cannot destroy it.

When light armored vehicles show up you migth want to invest in AT options like ptrs-penals (1 squad max), Guards (favoured on open maps), Conscript RPG-43 grenades or the Ptrs package maybe an AT gun against OKW flakhalftrack or after T2 starts.

As a general trend if you always invest more ressources then your enemy and you cannot get anything done with them (for example counter Stormtroopers with shocktroops then you will be starved at some point and might get suprised by earlier tanks or higher tech).

I would always focus on fighting asymetrical if you have troubles using similar units and ligth counters. If your opponent invests in Stormtroopers you should hunt them with light vehicles as they lack snares or AT-Options. And if you ever fail in the early game you can use the midgame to build your advantage especially if you have troubles fighting a 250/1 and some Stormtroopers.
16 Dec 2018, 15:49 PM
#6
avatar of Hectoir

Posts: 16

Permanently Banned


This isn't a Victorian era letter-in-the-mail, dude. Just ask your question :rofl:


If you do not have anything interesting to say, rather stay silent. It will repay you twice as much ;)
16 Dec 2018, 15:52 PM
#7
avatar of Hectoir

Posts: 16

Permanently Banned
So your troubles start at 2 CP or with the rushed 250/1 halftrack? I think this is exactly where a replay would help as i do not know how you start your games and how you play your options.

If you do T1 openings you should focus on the M3A1 Halftrack use it to scout enemy HMGs (50 sight range) kite enemy infantry and self repair it with flamer engineers that improve its short range damage against single squads that you can easily rush as a single panzerfaust and a bit of small arms fire cannot destroy it.

When light armored vehicles show up you migth want to invest in AT options like ptrs-penals (1 squad max), Guards (favoured on open maps), Conscript RPG-43 grenades or the Ptrs package maybe an AT gun against OKW flakhalftrack or after T2 starts.

As a general trend if you always invest more ressources then your enemy and you cannot get anything done with them (for example counter Stormtroopers with shocktroops then you will be starved at some point and might get suprised by earlier tanks or higher tech).

I would always focus on fighting asymetrical if you have troubles using similar units and ligth counters. If your opponent invests in Stormtroopers you should hunt them with light vehicles as they lack snares or AT-Options. And if you ever fail in the early game you can use the midgame to build your advantage especially if you have troubles fighting a 250/1 and some Stormtroopers.



Once again, many thanks for your time.

Next time I will havery to face this particular build order I will try 3x conscript opening into clowncar backed by some guards and see how far I can get away with it.

Then maybe try to seal the deal with Quadmount for extra flank protection and T34/85 with Mark target in case Panzers start showing up.


What do you think ? Could it work ?
16 Dec 2018, 16:09 PM
#8
avatar of Rubberluck

Posts: 33

Generally the answer to any problem in the early game is the liberal application of more Penals.
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