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Balance Data Since The Patch

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4 Jul 2015, 18:24 PM
#41
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2015, 18:10 PMGdot


If the focus is actual balance then I would hope they do use this method. Anything else would be foolish.


Nope, you're describing a quasi-balance, where only the skilled will see it.


True balance would involve all players, regardless of skill and faction choice.
aaa
4 Jul 2015, 18:38 PM
#42
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486



I don't like Gaurds Motor, but right now it might be the ONLY good doctrine for Soviets.


I ve been playing only 2 Guard Motor and Tank Hunter since april. TH>GM for me. And no team games. It would be ok if rhey remove non 1v1.
4 Jul 2015, 18:50 PM
#43
avatar of Justin xv

Posts: 255



Unfortunately, we don't have that data yet. Why don't you ask your buddies at Relic to pass it over? It's only data right? It couldn't possibly harm them in any way. Well, unless the data suggests things are skewed in a very clear direction.


DUSTY Stream June 2015:

DUSTY: "Let's play Axis, I'm fed up of losing today"
LEMON: "OK"


Hahahahaha +1 :clap:
aaa
4 Jul 2015, 18:52 PM
#44
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486

Really awkward how people can explain away such an obvious advantage in team games, even with a ton of data.

It's like listening to someone try to convince you that the sky is actually green, and you're only perceiving it to be blue.


even 2v2 is basicaly blob vs blob game lclose to the point of absurd. Germs winning it cuz they have more and early antiblob. 34s are totaly broken modes. There is nothing to balance there.
4 Jul 2015, 20:17 PM
#45
avatar of iTzDusty

Posts: 836 | Subs: 5



Unfortunately, we don't have that data yet. Why don't you ask your buddies at Relic to pass it over? It's only data right? It couldn't possibly harm them in any way. Well, unless the data suggests things are skewed in a very clear direction.


DUSTY Stream June 2015:

DUSTY: "Let's play Axis, I'm fed up of losing today"
LEMON: "OK"


Here we go again, the Relic Dusty conspiracy of Axis buffing or some shit. Didn't expect any less from you lot.

That's completely ignoring the ez mode +60 streak we had using double soviets. I was fed up of losing after trying out a new USF strat that was obviously not working for Lemon and I's playstyle. We've since gone back to double soviets and aren't having a problem again. Brian and I do single USF and single Soviet and are still winning just fine. It isn't working for momo and I.Other top teams like dbmb and crazyman can pull off the single USF and soviet strat since that works for them. Theyre on a 37 streak last I checked.

Keep grasping at the straws of the hidden data conspiracy though.
4 Jul 2015, 20:21 PM
#46
avatar of iTzDusty

Posts: 836 | Subs: 5



Nope, you're describing a quasi-balance, where only the skilled will see it.


True balance would involve all players, regardless of skill and faction choice.


Just because people resist learning the game properly and continue to play Axis over allies and vice versa, doesn't mean that we should cater to the LCD. Your perceived notions of balance can be completely wrong if you aren't a good player.
4 Jul 2015, 20:26 PM
#47
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2



Nope, you're describing a quasi-balance, where only the skilled will see it.


True balance would involve all players, regardless of skill and faction choice.


Nailed it. The attitude of "well, only top XX skilled players count towards balancing" is doing nothing for the over all health of the title. Should a paying customer not have a fun experience no matter the skill level? However, Relic has never stated who they balancing/designing factions for. Casuals? Hard cores? Perhaps they are completely satisfied with their current approach and have no intentions of changing it.

There is one thing that grinds my gears the most and it is the lack of officially published numbers. There has been hundreds of posts regarding game statistics that have been gathered by a single community member. Why not publish out the numbers themselves? Without a stated intention "we want to to achieve the following" and the numbers to back it up how do we really know if balance is better? How is success being measured?

Maybe I'm just over thinking things. :mellow:
4 Jul 2015, 20:57 PM
#48
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1165 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2015, 20:26 PMNapalm


Nailed it. The attitude of "well, only top XX skilled players count towards balancing" is doing nothing for the over all health of the title. Should a paying customer not have a fun experience no matter the skill level?


No one is saying you can't have fun. There are plenty of game modes to have fun in. Competitive match making is competitive. It is for those who have crafted their ability and efficiency playing competitively. This game has a small player base, having the ideal match is hard to accomplish. There is a good chance you could get matched up against an elite player if you choose competitive mode.

The notion that balance should be equally centered around pros and people building wires outside of their base is asinine. Let the experts balance the game and everyone else just enjoy it.
4 Jul 2015, 21:03 PM
#49
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

The reason why Ostheer is miles more popular than every other faction is because Ostheer actually got the Alpha fixes it needed to be competitive while every other faction got left in the dust.

Is the game unbalanced right now? You bet it is, and that's because of Relic's decision to release these changes piecemeal instead of going all in. I can 100% bet you the next patch that changes another faction will make that faction far more popular.

But Dusty is also right to a significant extent, a lot of people love to blame losses on balance instead of skill. I have replay after replay of me using CAS were the opponent just sat his tanks around and refused to move them despite red flares, getting priests killed by stuka bombing strikes.

There is also the fact the meta is shifting to, remember when people were shooting up to top 20 after PTRS's got buffed?
4 Jul 2015, 21:04 PM
#50
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589



Here we go again, the Relic Dusty conspiracy of Axis buffing or some shit. Didn't expect any less from you lot.


Keep grasping at the straws of the hidden data conspiracy though.


Lol, DUSTY conspiracy axis buffing? You have a very high self importance ego, if you think people actually go around saying stuff like that.

Are you, or are you not buddies with B R A D? Geez, you guys are so buddy, you all put a space between every letter of your names. I wish I could be cool too.

I did not say anything about you having anything to do with any axis buffs.

Not sure what you mean by "you lot" either. My opinion on this matter, is mine and mine alone. If people share this opinion, well, it might just have some legs...

-----------------------
As for the whole double soviets thing, why didn't you say "let's do double soviets" then?
I'll repeat what you said, just for posterity...

DUSTY: "Let's play Axis, I'm fed up of losing today"
LEMON: "OK"


Your words. Not mine.

4 Jul 2015, 21:06 PM
#51
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589



Just because people resist learning the game properly and continue to play Axis over allies and vice versa, doesn't mean that we should cater to the LCD. Your perceived notions of balance can be completely wrong if you aren't a good player.


Wrong. Some people are not capable of doing the things you, GDOT or any other top can do. If we all could do it, there wouldn't be top players. People have skill ceilings, and no matter how much you "learn" the game, you';ll only get so good.

"we should cater" - just LOL.
4 Jul 2015, 21:08 PM
#52
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

I would love to see what you think is OP in this current patch Tatatala, what specifically do you think is causing this discrepancy in win rates?
4 Jul 2015, 21:15 PM
#53
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Jesus Christ the hostility. Simmer down folks, we're all adults here.

Tatatala, Dusty has it right though. A game featuring dissimilar factions and asymetric balance intrinsically needs to be balanced towards the most skilled if it is ever to be competitive (or an actual e-sport), anything else would be self-defeating. Why?
People who play the game seriously with a mind to winning will necessarily shape the meta, and if the balance at the highest levels leaves to much to be desired, they will leave the game, and in consequence the game will stagnate and die, thus compromising the very goal of a competitive scene.
4 Jul 2015, 21:16 PM
#54
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

I would love to see what you think is OP in this current patch Tatatala, what specifically do you think is causing this discrepancy in win rates?


I haven't got any concrete data to work with, so, I can't say with any certainty what it is.

My best guess, is a mixture of lots of things, from ease of use through to maps.
4 Jul 2015, 21:20 PM
#55
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



I haven't got any concrete data to work with, so, I can't say with any certainty what it is.

My best guess, is a mixture of lots of things, from ease of use through to maps.


Why did you make this thread then? If you have not played the game to see what is OP and what is not how can you make informed statements about balance?

Statistics are supposed to be part of and support an argument they aren't supposed to be your argument.
4 Jul 2015, 21:24 PM
#56
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589



Why did you make this thread then? If you have not played the game to see what is OP and what is not how can you make informed statements about balance?

Statistics are supposed to be part of and support an argument they aren't supposed to be your argument.


Like I said, I have many different opinions on what makes the game unbalanced. If you want to trawl through my posting history, you'll see what I think.

This thread is actually for the discussion of the statistics and what they might mean. Not individual thought processes regarding certain units, although, using statistics in the type of discussion you describe would be excellent, if we actually had access to such statistics.

If you have a problem with this, feel free not to post? *shrug*
4 Jul 2015, 21:27 PM
#57
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

Jesus Christ the hostility. Simmer down folks, we're all adults here.

Tatatala, Dusty has it right though. A game featuring dissimilar factions and asymetric balance intrinsically needs to be balanced towards the most skilled if it is ever to be competitive (or an actual e-sport), anything else would be self-defeating. Why?
People who play the game seriously with a mind to winning will necessarily shape the meta, and if the balance at the highest levels leaves to much to be desired, they will leave the game, and in consequence the game will stagnate and die, thus compromising the very goal of a competitive scene.


So the health of a game is dependant upon the top 1% of players? Ignoring the clear balance issues the other 99% have to deal with?

Seems logical...


FYI this game is never going E-sports dude. Ever.
4 Jul 2015, 21:30 PM
#58
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1



So the health of a game is dependant upon the top 1% of players? Ignoring the clear balance issues the other 99% have to deal with?

Seems logical...


FYI this game is never going E-sports dude. Ever.


Maybe the 99% have to skill improve first before juging balance ?
4 Jul 2015, 21:31 PM
#59
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

One would infer from the stats you posted that OKW only is winning more because Ostheer is much more attractive and powerful. So it seems to reason the argument you should be making is that Ostheer got to many buffs or other factions did not get enough.

I said it before;

Ostheer actually got the Alpha fixes it needed to be competitive while every other faction got left in the dust.


OKW right know is a faction playing with it's arms tied behind it's back. The Stuka Zu Fuss vet change was nice but the Sturmtiger can no longer destroy crew weapons making it's purpose essentially moot.
4 Jul 2015, 21:31 PM
#60
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589



Maybe the 99% have to skill improve first before juging balance ?



No. If a player plays both factions equally, he should get similar results for both factions equally. No matter what the skill level. That is balance.
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