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russian armor

artillery and late game squadwipes

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20 Dec 2014, 00:51 AM
#41
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1677 | Subs: 2

you can always adjust rate of fire on top of the profile changes as well.

I think having the damage be a bit more constant and easier to judge is a lot better than the spikey damage that's inconsistent you have to play against and also use.
20 Dec 2014, 01:18 AM
#42
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829

So what happens if very inconsistent indirect damage of ranged weapons is lowered, on those vet 5 squads we talk about?

There are very few other things they have to worry about
20 Dec 2014, 01:29 AM
#43
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1677 | Subs: 2

first of all veterancy doesn't offer any protection against aoe damage.

What I proposed is having the aoe damage increased but reducing the chance to totally wipe full health squads in one shell.

I think having a constant and reliable damage source against all infantry would be preferred over having to roll the dice and hoping you wipe a squad.
20 Dec 2014, 01:34 AM
#44
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331



http://lmgtfy.com/?q=using+coh2+mod+tools

Anyway I believe the aoe profiles can be adjusted so that the splash damage is higher than currently but the chance to completely wipe a squad is lowered. The result is more consistent performance from aoe weapons and allows the opponent to react better because the output is more consistent.

This line of thought was brought up many times with other issues for example tank vs infantry combat where the main cannon damage would be reduced across the board vs infantry and the tank MGs buffed up to compensate which gives the tank more constant and manageable damage output vs infantry making it easier for players to judge when to pull their infantry out.







I like that idea and I really think tanks across the board should do less splash damage unless they are a tank that is more suited to killing infantry ( t34 for instance)

Big tanks such as the IS2 and Tiger would get a splash as well as ISU152, but say a p4 would get less, so they would like 1 model per shot unless pretty bunched up.

Im going to check out the link and see if this is something I can do. Thanks
20 Dec 2014, 01:41 AM
#45
avatar of swiffy

Posts: 124

My opinion is that squad wipes occur too frequently. I consider a squad wipe to be a single squad of 4+ people, possibly at full health, being killed by one hit from a tank, artillery, mortar, grenade, etc.

I am coming to terms with the reality that a squad could die in an instant from one of the mentioned units. Still, I don't like how it exists in the game. It's not a matter of learning to play, or blobbing. I'm talking about a single squad that can die without a chance respond.

An absurd example is when one of those little OKW AT guns wiped my squad on the retreat. I had retreated even before the shot was fired and was well out of range when the shot actually hit. It's crazy sometimes.

I think the discussion here is more focused on blobs getting killed by artillery, but it's much more than that. If it were up to me, CoH would always reward good plays, and punish bad plays. Squad wiping has become something that exists and punishes whoever it pleases at any given time. It's weird.
20 Dec 2014, 01:41 AM
#46
avatar of Unshavenbackman

Posts: 680

This thread... Lemon and Ciez loses some games = all arty should be nerfed. We really need a bigger community.
20 Dec 2014, 01:43 AM
#47
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Dec 2014, 00:39 AMpigsoup
only agree with demo and b4. one good demo can change the game and it is given freely to allies. b4 is such a dice roll and with luck, you can turn the game around in a second. that doesn't seem right.

all the other problems, i think elchino's spread out function can help.

+1 to spread out.


The reason the commander B4 is in is called "Counterattack Tactics" is because of that ability to turn a game around when it looks like everything has gone to shit. And now with Osteer's+OKW's ability to play sim city and create giant roaming blobs of doom the B4 is essential and is one of the few ways allies can stay competitive late game. People here seem to forget the B4 is also very good for killing heavy tanks and whatnot.
20 Dec 2014, 01:57 AM
#48
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

This thread... Lemon and Ciez loses some games = all arty should be nerfed. We really need a bigger community.


are you serious right now?
20 Dec 2014, 02:12 AM
#49
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829

first of all veterancy doesn't offer any protection against aoe damage.

What I proposed is having the aoe damage increased but reducing the chance to totally wipe full health squads in one shell.

I think having a constant and reliable damage source against all infantry would be preferred over having to roll the dice and hoping you wipe a squad.


I understand what you are saying and agree. Maybe it looked like I targeted question directly to your statement, but it was general question about thread topic (nerfing Allied ranged weapons).

What I was aiming at is:

Don't know about other people, but personally I cannot see myself defeating OKW infantry blob, as Soviet, without OKW player retreating from Zis barrage.
Crawling around Maxims to throw granades because he is gambling that he is going to do more damage then receive, because 120 mm mortar isn't squad wiping but rather killing model or two.
Currently those ranged weapons and occasional squad wipes (more importantly fear of squad wipes) are the only deterant to OKW inf blobs.

Take that away and OKW will have walk in the park vs Soviet army. US wouldn't be that affected imho.
Especially in 2v2+ games...

What I am saying it would create a whole new balance issue
20 Dec 2014, 02:28 AM
#50
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

The biggest issue is the infantry grouping since the last patch that makes axis 4 man squads so vulnerable to explosives in general.

yes explosives should counter blobs, nobody's arguing with that.

But once single he shots start annihilating SINGLE squads in cover, this is not something positive in terms of gameplay.

I've had games where Explosives should continuously fail to wipe my squads, leading to a win and I've had games where I had the upper hand but single katusa wiped 3 squads in the vicinity that were largely placed apart from each other.

This is more appearant in team games were artillery is rampant, especially on maps like ettelbruck or angermuende (narrow, limited corridors) where it is practically impossible to sneak behind the lines to to kill that katusha.
20 Dec 2014, 02:30 AM
#51
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186



are you serious right now?


It's called inferiority complex at best.

병신에게 먹이를 주지 마시오.
20 Dec 2014, 02:38 AM
#52
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

I'm 100% for reducing the number of random squad wipes for both sides but from a balance prespective, indirect fire is currently the only way allies have to punish forward med truck placements, especially in team games. As long as it remains effective with a combined arms push, I'm all for reducing the number of complete squad wipes.
20 Dec 2014, 02:40 AM
#53
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Like a Flak truck, Stuka, Luchs, Sturmtiger and KT are not wiping squads even better than Soviets and USF units..
20 Dec 2014, 02:44 AM
#54
avatar of Unshavenbackman

Posts: 680


are you serious right now?


Ciez talked about it in his stream. At least bring a replay if youre gonna start a nerfartyparty.
20 Dec 2014, 02:53 AM
#55
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

Like a Flak truck, Stuka, Luchs, Sturmtiger and KT are not wiping squads even better than Soviets and USF units..


this thread isnt about those units. this unit is about indirect fire units instagibbing squads cause of rng. tell me, what are you supposed to do from prevent a mortar shell landing ontop of a squad thats clumped in one of the numerous little yellow cover craters that litter the ground at the end of the game?



Ciez talked about it in his stream. At least bring a replay if youre gonna start a nerfartyparty.


ok we can save some replays if you want
20 Dec 2014, 03:00 AM
#56
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



this thread isnt about those units. this unit is about indirect fire units instagibbing squads cause of rng. tell me, what are you supposed to do from prevent a mortar shell landing ontop of a squad thats clumped in one of the numerous little yellow cover craters that litter the ground at the end of the game?



ok we can save some replays if you want

IS and ISU were mentioned in the first post so...
What shall you do to prevent single shell mortar? Nothing. Its like 1/30. I find this as part of the game. Sometime I will wipe a squad and sometime I will lose a squad. Problem is when it occures really often like ISU, KT etc.. Single lucky shell is not an issue. Prons and cons are equal. RNG is part of the game.
20 Dec 2014, 04:01 AM
#57
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

20 Dec 2014, 04:06 AM
#58
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829



this thread isnt about those units. this unit is about indirect fire units instagibbing squads cause of rng. tell me, what are you supposed to do from prevent a mortar shell landing ontop of a squad thats clumped in one of the numerous little yellow cover craters that litter the ground at the end of the game?



ok we can save some replays if you want


No punt intended. But this thread is about OKW loosing vet 5 squads to indirect fire squad wipes, thus causing axis to lose games they should have otherwise won.

You should revisit OP, if you disagree.

P.S. few posters commented from different perspective, but thread is about "nerf allied long range weapons" in fact
20 Dec 2014, 04:12 AM
#59
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

So, nerf Allies long range options and completely forget that Allies losing its vet 3 squads late game to walking stukas is ok?


Really?
20 Dec 2014, 04:24 AM
#60
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

This thread... Lemon and Ciez loses some games = all arty should be nerfed. We really need a bigger community.


Rofl.

I've been complaining about Ostheer squads getting 1-shot for the past year and a half. This isn't a new issue. But guess what. So far we've more or less removed that capability from grenades (unless you screw up and don't stick in green cover - or fail to dodge them), we've limited the ability for most tanks to 1-shot squads (go back and look at the old KV8, IS2, ISU), mines don't 1 shot as much as they used to, even the Katyusha/Werfer (especially the werfer) aren't as gimmicky as they once were. And hell, at least you can play around the Katyusha a lot more than you used to be able to. Oh and the Stuka has been nerfed compared to what it was.

This thread is about continuing to improve the game in a constructive manner. I care about this game and its future, not some goofy ladder losses. So unless you think that having your squads get 1 shot is good, skillful and fun game play - please get over yourself and realize what we're actually trying to do here.

@Fridod - bombing runs and off-maps are totally different. All of those things inherently have counter-play because they drop a giant flare where they're going to be. If the B4 did the same thing, I'd have no problem with it. (They also almost exclusively require LoS on the target). If you fail to move out of the huge flare, you deserve to lose some stuff.
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