Profile of SturmtigerCobra

Now 1.250.000+ new CoH owners in 3 days:

http://steamspy.com/app/231430
Owners: 3,621,341
New players give mostly positive reviews;

Now sorry but I'll go ahead and just say it, Relic have no shame

Don't mock the Relic GM, the captain got a plan ;
Relic Entertainment's Justin Dowdeswell on regaining stability after THQ's collapse, and the imminent launch of Dawn of War III
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-04-12-sega-had-a-plan-to-quietly-become-a-powerhouse-in-pc-publishing
Wednesday 12th April 2017

"Sega has put a lot of trust and even expectation on the studios to define its future, to plot that course. That gave us the freedom and flexibility we really needed to bring Relic back. Even though that acquisition was pivotal, I would say that any group - games or not - is going to suffer from the bankruptcy of a parent company. There was a lot of repair and recovery to do as a result."
Quote;Justin Dowdeswell

Sorry Captain to burst your bubble, but after 4 years of "rebuilding Relic", FFS stop using the THQ victim card.
Alex Garden, the founder, and former CEO of Relic could have done this in less than 2 years.

DoW3 are financially dead weight, now get back to work on AoE4/CoH. Even CoH2 has more growth potential than DoW3.

Update:
New Relic Office & Gentrification Drama

Daryl Tagabi works in the chrome plating area at Hudson Plating and Coating Ltd. in Vancouver, British Columbia, Thursday, January 28, 2016. After 40 years of business, Hudson Plating, one of the many businesses being pushed out as the area by tech companies [read Relic/SEGA]

Gentrification of Vancouver’s Mount Pleasant generating a fight
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/gentrification-of-vancouvers-mount-pleasant-generating-a-fight/article29504390/

*SNIP*Mount Pleasant, an eclectic mix of early 20th-century houses, a couple of historic apartment buildings, warehouses, old factories and operations like Hudson, has been rigorously protected for industrial use as a result, and is a case in point: Almost all of it is zoned as industrial, both in city plans and in Metro Vancouver’s 2011 regional growth strategy, which introduced a strong emphasis on preserving industrial land in the Lower Mainland.

But the area – minutes from downtown and suddenly a hipster favourite for work and play – is facing huge pressure as new kinds of businesses push to get in, some of them claiming they are the contemporary version of industrial.

Opinion: Mount Pleasant a prime example of redefining industrial real estate
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/opinion-redefining-industrial-real-estate

New Relic Office (Mount Pleasant) vs Old Office (Yaletown) - An economic decision?
Ideally, with future studio growth, Relic moving from the Yaletown district to Mount Pleasant, is an economic decision. Supply and demand. Vancouver is a fast growing city that needs more "space" by transforming low-density into high-density (higher buildings).
A growing tech industry needs more office space which usually forms in clusters. For future growth, Yaletown higher density/"non-industrial" was probably too expensive compared to former industrial Mount Pleasant.
The downside to this "cycle" is referred to as gentrification.

Definition of gentrification

: the process of renewal and rebuilding accompanying the influx of middle-class or affluent people into deteriorating areas that often displaces poorer residents

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentrification


So Relic/SEGA (long-term) want to maximize profits as the Vancouver tech industry moves into former industrial-zoned areas as the lease/rent is usually lower.
Now from a corporate perspective there is nothing wrong trying to maximize future profits from AoE/CoH3 etc..
BUT!

What's wrong, however, is some yuppies trying to pretend something they are not with all the virtue signaling (claiming moral superiority/holier than you attitude).

The Relic GM should not try to dress it up as "sustainable", "come on its 2017", smart, funky, trendy or any other "buzzword" these smooth-talking leaders can come up with.
This to me just proves once again, some of these "oil salesmen" will say anything to keep some false narrative going.
It's also not cool these tech leaders (including Relic GM) trying to pretend they know "better" (arrogance behind the mask "civility") than the majority of an area's residents (Mount Pleasant) that has lived there a long time.
These tech leaders/yuppies trying to rebrand Mount Pleasant sounds more or less like South Park SoDoSoPa virtue signaling:


The Relic GM bandwagon of smooth talkers
Some new and old quotes from the General Manager, Justin Dowdeswell - Nov. 23, 2017;

https://www.biv.com/article/2017/11/mount-pleasant-nabs-another-tech-tenant/

*SNIP*
Relic began to look for a new headquarters in 2016 that could allow the 20-year old company to grow their employees from 180 to up to 350.

"Selecting the future home of the studio was a complicated process,” said Relic general manager Justin Dowdeswell. “We worked hard to find the right space, the right neighbourhood, the right partner, and the right location for staff – down to charting every employee’s journey to the office."

The perfect employee’s journey to the new office and the bicycle club of excellence saving the world from global warming?. Saving dolphins, saving hungry kids etc. Very nice, but no solar panels?

1,321 Km ridden, 39,615 calories burned, and 286 Kg of greenhouse gasses saved! That's how Relic rolls on #BTWW
https://twitter.com/relicgames/status/925097523722768385

Flashback - General Manager give praise to the "old office" in Yaletown;

Wednesday 12th April 2017
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-04-12-sega-had-a-plan-to-quietly-become-a-powerhouse-in-pc-publishing
*SNIP*
So much has changed. Relic was acquired at auction by Sega, which took over as publisher on Company of Heroes 2, and it is now gearing up for the launch of Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War III. It is no longer based in the financial district, moving instead to the reclaimed warehouses of Vancouver's Yaletown, a favourite location among the city's many game developers and tech startups.
Justin Dowdeswell, Relic's general manager, says the new offices are "not as flash" as the previous space, but it in many ways it is a better fit for the company. "It's where a lot of the Vancouver studios began,"

In contrast here what the former SEGA Europe boss (Jurgen Post) has said- Wednesday 24th May 2017;

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-05-24-jurgen-post-the-sega-brand-will-come-back-and-start-to-flourish-again
"The games is where the love of the community starts, then secondly for the studio, and thirdly there is the publisher. So at some point, the success of the studios will start to reflect on Sega."

And Relic sister studio, Amplitude;

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/7ddq59/we_are_amplitude_studios_ask_us_anything_and/
We are Amplitude Studios! Ask us anything and enter our giveaway!
But just as important, how long do you see yourselves supporting Endless Space 2? What are your sales goals for ES2 in its lifetime?
[–]Slowhands_amplitudeAmplitude;
We don't really have specific sales goals. Or let me put it this way: As long as we can keep paying the electric bills we'll keep adding content We started the studio because we love doing this, and that drives us much more than financial goals. Unless we go bankrupt and have to fire everyone, of course...

Quotes from Relic own website;

In essence, we envision the type of games that we would love to play, and then we create them.

Our studio is different from most others. We value ideas and innovation so every game we create is a true reflection of our entire teams’ capabilities. We believe in the autonomous, entrepreneurial spirit of an indie developer – only with the extensive resources of a large publisher.

In other Relic news, DoW3 failing miserably? Want to boost studio morale and deflect blame away from the leadership? Say hello to;


If anyone still thinks SEGA is happy with the DoW leadership (this include the GM) then you need to pay more attention to the recent recruitment details.

A Chief Operating Officer (COO), also called the chief operations officer, is a position that can be one of the highest-ranking executive positions in an organization, comprising part of the "C-Suite". The COO is responsible for the daily operation of the company,[1] and routinely reports to the highest ranking executive, usually the chief executive officer (CEO).[2] The COO is usually the second in command at the firm, especially if the highest ranking executive is the Chairman and CEO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_operating_officer
IIRC, Relic hasn't had an “official” COO since Ron Moravek 1998-2004 and Alex Garden (CEO & founder) left Relic in 2004. After Alex left to join Nexon NA, Ron Moravek steps up in THQ/Relic leadership as GM + THQ VP (2004-2006 and later 2012-2013).
The simple fact is this;
Without AoE4/CoH money, Relic devs would now be looking forward to massive laid off.
AoE4 will either break or make Relic.

The Relic GM bandwagon of smooth talkers should spend less time virtue signaling and more time+focus trying to turn around the Titanic.

Ask yourself, when is the last time you have seen any Relic top studio leader talk about the COH1 leader that did this heroic act;
Company Of Heroes Dev Gave His Life To Save His Family
https://kotaku.com/5631947/company-of-heroes-dev-gave-his-life-to-save-his-family

The 33-year-old developer was killed in the crash. His wife and their child survived the crash, thanks to Brian's last-minute sacrifice.
According to Erin Wood, she and the baby would not have survived the crash had Brian not swerved at the last minute, taking the brunt of the impact himself.

Former Relic GM (Jonathan Dowdeswell) and CoH2 Executive Producer (left 2013) talk about Relic's Brian Wood Memorial Internship:
https://vfs.edu/news/2011/01/25/remembering-relics-brian-wood-with-memorial-internship

FYI here what game developers actually care about;
Developer Satisfaction Survey 2016

http://docplayer.net/53344086-Developer-satisfaction-survey-2016.html
https://www.igda.org/
Snapshot: Preferred Employer
Respondents were given the opportunity to give an open-ended answer to the question, “Which
developer or publisher would you most like to work for?” For the third year running, Valve
topped the list with 12% of the vote. This represented 50 votes. Blizzard came in second with
10% of the vote followed by a tie between BioWare and “my own studio” (both with 5%).

Update to my previous post - Coming top Relic leadership “restructuring/change”;
My prediction about SEGA Europe searching for a new Relic COO/chief operating officer (second in studio command) was spot on and new COO job description posted a few days later;
https://ca.indeed.com/Chief-Operating-Officer-jobs-in-Vancouver,-BC

The new Executive producer (David Littman) is practically a de facto chief operating officer with the official title;
"Production Leader Creating AAA Games at Relic Entertainment".

Former ice hockey goaltender

Confirmed; Relic top leadership “restructuring” (again)
Turning the Titanic?


Relic seek CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER (second in Relic command/"GM babysitter")
For future reference;

https://boards.greenhouse.io/relic/jobs/939606
Relic Entertainment, a wholly owned studio of SEGA, is the award winning RTS developer of Homeworld, Dawn of War and Company of Heroes, and we’re on the hunt for a Chief Operating Officer (COO) to join our leadership team. As a studio leader, you will play a huge part in creating a workplace where people are energized and empowered to not only do their best work but to continually surpass their best. You will have ownership and creative freedom to solve our most challenging problems.

As an integral (and new!) part of our leadership team, you will be challenged to solve complex problems, drive change, and challenge our thinking. We are looking for a positive, humble, and highly-motivated leader who can teach us a thing or two. [read alot]. Running a high-performing studio is a collective effort, and you will play a critical role in that effort – shaping and guiding the future growth of the studio. [hey look SEGA need "babysitter" for Relic GM]

As our COO, you will…
Partner with our General Manager to build a high-performing studio that supports great talent in doing their best work
Design and drive the strategic vision and roadmap for our operational teams
Build and lead a high-performing operational team (Talent, Marketing & Communications, Space Planning, IT, Legal, Finance & BI) that is aligned with supporting our developers in doing their best work
Oversee the day-to-day operations of the studio, and keep the GM appraised of significant events
Support our GM in developing and overseeing the long-term business strategies of the studio
Collaborate with our GM to ensure that our values, people and operational teams are continuously in alignment with our product goals
Support the execution and quality of our games by driving the continuous improvement of our people and processes to enable talent and innovation at all levels of the studio
Create focus for your teams and operational leaders – cut the noise, guide them through priority setting, and hold them accountable to constantly executing on meaningful work
Partner with our Executive Producers to ensure they have the support needed to deliver on our studio roadmap
Partner with our GM and Finance Director to lead our annual budgeting and operational plans that support our long-term financial strategy
Assess and manage risks to the studio – whether it be projects, people or resourcing
Build a positive work environment focused on accountability, results and having a ton of fun

Ideally, you are...
Experienced – 7+ years of senior leadership experience in operations in a comparable industry; ideally you’ve worked in games, entertainment or tech
Strong understanding of business operations (HR, Finance, IT, etc) and experience leading cross-functional teams
Substantial experience working in companies that have gone through high-change or growth
Post-secondary education in business, leadership, marketing and/or game development
Results driven – you have an impressive track record of building teams, rallying people, and consistently achieving results
Service minded – you are laser focused on providing best-in-class experiences to our candidates, employees and players
Player focused – you understand how the work our operational teams do impacts the quality of projects we deliver to our players
A clear communicator – you understand the impact of your words and actions in encouraging and activating those around you
A change agent – you lead change, explain ‘the why’ behind change and pursue improvement relentlessly

And believe in...
Relationships matter – you listen, care deeply, ask questions, and understand the role that people play in our studio success
Managerial courage – you are transparent, practice direct feedback, make decisions, and deal head-on with problems when they come up!
Leading by example – you create accountability, apologize when you’ve made a mistake, and practice what you preach

IIRC, Relic hasn't had an “official” COO since Ron Moravek 1998-2004 and Alex Garden (CEO & founder) left Relic in 2004. After Alex left to join Nexon NA, Ron Moravek step up in THQ/Relic leadership as GM + THQ VP (2004-2006 and later 2012-2013). So big Relic leadership change and prove SEGA/Tim Heaton is not happy with the current Relic leadership.

Translation; Relic don't fuck up again OR else!. Should the current GM get fired, the COO will become the interim general manager until they find a replacement.
TBH if Relic leaders continue to mess up, I would not be surprised if Relic merges with Creative Assembly.(see below SEGA/CA promotions for possible hint of this). SEGA trust CA a lot more than Relic and recent SEGA promotions confirm this. Several former CA leaders have moved up within the ranks of SEGA Europe.

This Relic leadership change is relevant to recent SEGA promotions - July 2017.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-07-25-sega-europe-promotes-john-clark-tim-heaton

The other promotion sees Creative Assembly studio director Tim Heaton bumped up to executive vice president of studios. While he will continue to oversee the Total War studio, Heaton will also work with other studio directors within Sega Europe on best practices and studio collaborations.

Sega Europe unveils new president and COO - August 2017

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-08-02-sega-europe-unveils-new-president-and-coo
"I'm delighted to be joining the incredible Sega Europe team at what could be described as a pivotal moment in the company's history," Bergstresser said in a statement.

"With the road to 2020 mapped out by Sega Sammy, all areas of the business must work closely together to drive continued success and innovation/ It will be up to the team and I to ensure that Sega Europe continues to be a leader in the games business around the world. I am very much looking forward to the challenge."
Tatsuyuki Miyazak added: "Sega has outlined a solid plan towards further profitability by 2020 and needs cutting edge leaders to help make this goal a reality. In that respect, Chris joins SEGA Europe at a very exciting time We believe that Chris has all the qualities required to take Sega Europe to the next level and help us achieve these goals. We are looking forward to seeing how the business moves forward under his guidance."
The news follows promotions for John Clark, who is now executive vice president of publishing, and Tim Heaton, who has become executive vice president of studios. Both will support Bergstresser in his new role.

Creative Assembly director running Relic Entertainment on interim basis (2013)

https://www.polygon.com/2013/4/9/4204850/creative-assembly-director-relic-entertainment-general-manager-tim-heaton
Tim Heaton, studio director of Total War developer The Creative Assembly, has been appointed interim general manager of Company of Heroes 2 developer Relic Entertainment, he told CVG.

"My role in this phase is to keep the studio focused on delivering [Company of Heroes 2], to find the necessary staff to take Relic into the future and to ease the transition," said Heaton. "Although there are no plans to tie the two studios together, we're already seeing knowledge feed back from Relic into [The Creative Assembly]."

Heaton will oversee Relic as it approaches the June 25 launch of Company of Heroes 2, and searches for a permanent general manager. Alex Peters, who served as general manager under previous owner THQ, left the company for Activision shortly before THQ's first bankruptcy auction in January, in which Sega acquired Relic for $26.6 million. Sega owns both Relic and The Creative Assembly.

Restoring Relic's leadership - 2013
http://www.develop-online.net/opinions/restoring-relic-s-leadership/0184129

*SNIP*
‘Hey, you know, if you need any help with Relic just let me know’, and the Sega bosses came back with, ‘Yeah, get yourself an apartment there for the year’. So, for the past six months, I’ve been splitting my time between CA and Relic – three weeks here and three weeks back home on average. And you know what? Running two studios is twice as hard as running one. Who knew?

UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT

On my first visit to Relic two things dawned on me through the mists of jet lag. That there was a game to deliver – Company of Heroes 2 was to launch at the end of June, and that there was very little studio leadership. The previous general manager of Relic had left well before the purchase of Relic by Sega, and although there was an executive producer on CoH 2 that was pretty much it. Nobody was leading the studio in a game-centric way from the front.

Some questions CoH/DoW fans should be asking themselves;
Why has SEGA Europe hired a professional market research agency (http://harris-interactive.com/about/) to gather and analyze community feedback from DoW3 (confirmed) and possible CoH3? Why don't SEGA Europe trust Relic own market research? FYI, harris-interactive is a European research agency.
https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15264/have-you-been-selected-for-the-survey

http://harris-interactive.com/about/
Harris Interactive is a full-service, digital consultative custom market research agency that combines sector expertise with award-winning research design.

We go above and beyond to make complex decisions easy and provide simple, actionable insights. And now, our industry-leading technology delivers those insights faster than anyone else. And with in-house expertise covering all areas of research, design, implementation, analysis, and reporting – with particular strengths in loyalty, brand and new product development – we’re with our clients every step of the way.

At Harris Interactive our legacy, expertise and relationships made us who we are but technology drives our future and speed of delivery allows us to anticipate challenges.

Fans deserve a better game and talented Relic devs deserve a better leadership. It's simple as that. Mediocre leadership lead to mediocre results.
Yes, moving forward more Relic leaders are going to get fired and/or replaced. No amount of Relic's wishful thinking and singing kumbaya are gonna change that.
DoW3/CoH2 dissent voting with their wallet made that happen. Without that, do you really think SEGA would demand these surveys as independent (unbiased) from previous "Relic biased research"?
If you understand a bit what's going on its pretty hilarious to watch.

From DoW3 was first announced, Relic leaders desperately tried to paint a "rosy picture" about Relic's future and that they had a positive relationship with fans. All the CoH/DoW dissent was "just a fluke" and had nothing to do with Relic's leadership capabilities.
Why would SEGA give up on CoH2/CoH3 for DoW3 and AoE4?
Were they misinformed by Relic? Imagine this; Relic goes to SEGA and says they made some huge mistakes with CoH2. To get more CoH2/CoH3 money, how many Relic leaders would take personal responsibility and risk their career over this? Apparently, not a whole lot.
I KNEW from Relic leaders body language that there was some kind of internal conflict going on.
Not very courageous, some Relic leaders choose the easy way out. Focus on DoW3 and AoE4, forget about CoH like an orphan.
All Relic leaders should be forced to watch this clip from There Will Be Blood (2007)
at least 10 times;
I've abandoned my child!


So you want good answers? then start by asking better questions to yourself. What is critical thinking? Why is this relevant? Why are Relic leaders not good at critical thinking compared to other competitive studios? Why can't some Relic leaders handle personal criticism?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

Critical thinking is the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment.[1] The subject is complex, and there are several different definitions which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis or evaluation of factual evidence.

Do these failing leaders suffer from cognitive dissonance?

Look at Relic leaders that are behind all this virtue signaling and completely not related to any Relic IP. Coming next, a charity event for endangered unicorns and bigfoot?

A lot of CoH fans still don't seem to grasp that SEGA has been on a collision course with Relic's leadership for at least a year now.
The DoW3 executive producer, brand manager, game director. Now all gone or has been replaced.

FYI; neither the DoW3 brand manager (Danielle Robinson) that worked on this game PR/marketing for years and the executive producer (Stephen MacDonald) was not even included in DoW3 end credits.
‘A Surreal Lucid Nightmare’: The Making Of ‘Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War III’ Trailer
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/videogames/surreal-lucid-nightmare-making-warhammer-40000-dawn-war-iii-trailer-140474.html

Look at Axis Animation http://www.axisanimation.com/ that made the awesome DoW3 announcement trailer and vastly outclass anything Relic could have done. With no community interactions, Axis Animation (not Relic) captured the essence and art style of DoW perfectly.
From the first in-game footage was released this was pretty much the end of DoW3. Just by getting the immersion right they could have easily made a lot of money.

Since when do SEGA Europe EVER release AAA games without an Executive producer? The DoW3 team when in full production was without an Executive producer for one year. Normally, when a top leader leaves there is a smooth transition.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamstephenmac/?authType=name&authToken=Al7T&trk=prof-sb-browse_map-photo
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-littman-52668b27/
The new Executive producer is practically a de facto chief operating officer with the official title;
"Production Leader Creating AAA Games at Relic Entertainment".
I suspect SEGA is now reviewing Relic's top job applications. Do Relic has a problem with favoritism/nepotism? If true, do you think SEGA would tolerate that? Favoritism if not dealt with can cost SEGA millions of dollars.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Relic-Entertainment-RVW4161332.htm
I worked at Relic Entertainment full-time (More than a year)
Pros
-most of the colleagues are friendly and awesome to work with
-new GM seems to know the problems with this company and is trying to fix them
Cons
-favoritism is key to survive in this place if you want to keep your job
-old timers are only good at little of what they know and most are not updated to the current technology and skill sets
-poor management over all
-might be time to let go some of the top decision makers, some of them might be stubborn and ignorant when looking at the current market
Advice to Management
Don't just listen to what the leads/managers says. Listen to the little guys. Some of them are afraid to speak their mind because of their managers.Look at your game sales and you shall know that some of the decision maker shall be let go

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Relic-Entertainment-RVW5962386.htm
I worked at Relic Entertainment full-time (More than 3 years)
Pros
Some incredibly talented people to work with, office location, full-time position benefits are good.
Cons
Too many managers, but no one seems to take actual responsibilities for anything. Often people are treated unfair, management is reluctant to criticism. The career progress is all about traditional hierarchical career path, based on technical proficiency and past performance, not employee potential and/or talent.

Do you really think SEGA is not going to step in after DoW3 fail and protect their investment?
What have Arch Warhammer said about SEGA's plan for Relic?


Looking at some leaders body language in past interviews/streams, it's obvious if they mess up with AoE4 and/or CoH3 a lot more leaders are gonna get fired. Personally, thats the primary reason im relative optimistic about the future.
From a customer perspective, you want more competition in Relic, not less. You want Relic leaders to fear they might lose their jobs. When leaders fall into the trap of complacency, they tend to get sloppy and not caring about retaining loyal customers. Sound familiar?.
SEGA is not perfect, but believe it or not. They are several steps ahead of Relic incompetent leadership, which on several occasions has been pretty delusional.

Five Signs Your Boss Is Incompetent
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/2015/12/12/five-signs-your-boss-is-incompetent/#f3fc97d35148

He or She is Out of Touch

Your manager will show his or her failure to grasp the role by losing touch with the activity in your department. Everyone else will know the top three or five most pressing issues and priorities, but your boss can't keep track.

He or she will ask people about unrelated issues and when they try to say "But look, this issue is critical and we have to address it today!" the boss will get agitated or say "Yes, I knew that!" when it's obvious s/he didn't.

We know what's up when our boss mouths the right words but doesn't understand what they mean. We can tell when he or she asks a question that makes it clear he or she has no understanding of the topic.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/high-impact-leaders-inspire-people-low-manage-mack/
High impact leaders inspire people. Low impact leaders manage people.
When it comes to inspiring people, this includes inspiring ourselves, high impact leaders are the only ones who can make it happen. Who is inspiring you to develop yourself to a higher level? If it's not the person you see in the mirror, you're already in trouble. If someone else wants to help you, that's great. That's a bonus! But, if it doesn't start with you, your life is going to be filled with blaming others for your own circumstances and lack of options.

SEGA should listen to dissent from the "little guys" in Relic. They know whats going. In general, there are two types of leaders. Those that learn from their mistakes and those that dont. There is no shame to admit that you're on a learning curve and ask for help.
We (as a community) are all in this together to help each other right? Or perhaps your part of the problem not part of the solution?