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Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 19:50 PM if it were up to me i would balance the T-34-76 as a 300mp 100 fuel 180 armor 120/110/100 6.1 reload tank with only 10 vision and an ability to pop the commander out for 50 sight while disabling the gun... the T-34 had more armor than the panzer 4 G in real life in exchange for a worse gun and no cupola... this would make the unit kinda true to life while being balanced by requiring infantry support wherever it goes... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 17:44 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 17:24 PMHannibal You could also phrase it differently: You get about the same capabilities on AI as a more expensive unit, yet also okay-ish AT. no... you get less ai capabilities and even less AT capabilities on a cheaper unit... the P4 actually fires faster than the T-34 with better scatter and with pintle exceeds T-34 MG dps at all ranges... Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 17:24 PMHannibal The T34 is also not meant to slug it out frontally on long range. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying a T34 rework would not fix any issues, I am saying it would just create others while not addressing the core issues that Soviets have, because I do not see limited AT capability as one. then why is the T-34-85 such a must have as a commander choice? the thing is the soviets do not have limited AT capability... but they lack an efficient lategame unit that has both AT and AI in a single package... something that every other faction has... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 17:00 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 16:57 PMSerrith The T-34 has other unique characteristics which distinguish it. More offensive vet, better mobility, ability to cap and of course ram. A cost increase would not make it a p4 clone, anymore then the cromwell is a P4 clone. not entirely sure... im sure that the current T-34 isnt as cost efficient as the current panzer 4 soo its worth adjusting its performance without adjusting price and without making the T-34 overpowered... now we could hike its price and give it more than just a simple penetration buff aswell but im still into the idea of a cheap 120/110/100 pen T-34 at 90 fuel as a matter of preference... it fits the general theme of the T-34 as an attritional unit In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 16:53 PM the other option of course is to make the T-34-85 nondoc.... but id bet the balance team would throw a hissy fit if that were to be done... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 16:50 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 16:46 PMSerrith And of course, a corresponding price hike. My point is, and always was that the t-34's stats are to be expected from a 90 fuel vehicle, but the timing may be off. I never said it was as or more cost effective then a Panzer 4, only that at 90 fuel, it isn't cost ineffective. we could always not give it a price hike.... that would allow it to be at least as cost effective as a panzer 4 which would give the soviets the much needed medium generalist with the added flavor of being cheaper in exchange for raw performance... buffing its performance then giving it a price hike basically turns it into a P4 clone... wouldnt want that exactly... keeping it cheaper but equally efficient to a P4 would at least retain its flavor as an attritional unit while making it directly competitive against the P4... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 16:37 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 16:15 PMHannibal ??? Axis also only have the P4 as a medium tank. and the P4 is an actual medium tank generalist... very much capable of fighting armor while being superior to the T-34 against infantry... the soviets have nothing that comes even close to it nondoc... Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 16:15 PMHannibal Soviets have the SU85 (even the SU76) and a decent ATG for AT purposes. yes while having no medium generalist to speak of... every other faction has a medium or a premium generalist in their lineup... Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 16:15 PMHannibal Regarding AT, the M4A3 will also lose to a P4 since they almost cost the same (making a 1v1 comparison better). i never stated that AT was the only metric here... in fact i brought up anti infantry and utility as an important factor as to why i think both the M4A3 and the P4 outclass the T-34 heavily even in terms of cost efficiency... and as to why i think the T-34 is inefficient as a lategame vehicle... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 16:30 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 16:20 PMSerrith There's the concrete answer I've been asking for. Now the problem is the Cromwell which has 135/120/105 but for 110 fuel. Why would I get the cromwell when I could buy this nameless medium tank for 20 fuel less, but with only a small hit to long range and mid range penetration? But if this nameless tank had say... 80 long range penetration, there might actually be reason to weigh the costs involved. Now regarding the soviets having an incomplete kit. Yeah, the soviets currently crutch heavily on the Su85 and doctrinal vehicles to get them through the late game I agree. That however is completely separate to whether or not the T-34 is "worth" 90 fuel. the T-34 could be made into that lategame "complete kit" we need with a simple penetration buff... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 16:02 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:59 PMSerrith Maybe if you answered the actual question you wouldn't end up repeating yourself. For 90 fuel, what is a reasonable amount of penetration for a generalist medium? Do you see T-34 in there? I dont... So lets say that its a generalist medium that can be built from the tier 3 HQ for the brits since you seem to be getting hung up on the T-34 bit. the brits have proper lategame tanks to rely on thus the need for a medium tank that can frontally challenge the P4 would be unnecessary... the T-34 in its current state would be efficient so long as ram were not removed... if the brits did NOT have the comet or churchill then id probably start at 120/110/100 at 90 fuel... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 15:59 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:51 PMHannibal Does this also mean that the Puma needs a buff because 3 Pumas < 2 T34s in a frontal stationary engagement? Jackson and Firefly need also heavy buffs because they'd lose to a JP4. the difference is the T-34 is the best medium tank the soviets have... they literally have no panther nor comet nor M4A3 nor churchill nor P4 nor P4J to rely on... they are the ONLY faction that suffers from this drawback hence the T-34 needs to be adjusted to be comparable to these units... Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:51 PMHannibal Especially with turreted and mobile units, these comparisons only give very limited information since the main advantage is outnumbering and flanking the enemy. And then you do not note that you're using one of the units at an intended weakness. not when a unit is supposed to be directly comparable to it yet still loses despite spending more resources... Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:51 PMHannibal Also please give more information on your tests: How was your setup, did you account for focus fire (in a game even a total scrub would focus on one tank), if a tank survived, how much HP did it still have? That's quite some valuable information, since it makes a huge difference in the P4s won 4/5 times with 1 shot left on the survivor or with full HP. setup at open flat ground 3 and a half conscript sandbag length distance no focus fire done in any of the cases... P4 was 1 shot left in the first test but at half health for 2 of the other cases and at full health for the other... the T-34 in the case where the T-34 won (with one P4 gun disabled) was 1 shot to KO for 1 T-34 and 1 shot from full health for the second T-34... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework30 Nov 2020, 15:53 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:38 PMSerrith You seem to have lost my point with the rocket artillery. The katy comes later then the Land mattress. Does that mean the katy is worse? Does that mean the two units can't or shouldnt be be compared? timing is a major factor... but it isnt the ONLY factor... the landmattress is a terrible point of comparison since its barrage is a tickle compared to a katy/pwerf/stuka/calliOP Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:38 PMSerrith Except that you've already stated the M4 is blatantly OP and shouldnt really be used as a comparison. So are you advocating instead for an M4 and a Panzer 4 nerf? i didnt say it was blatantly OP... i said the M4 was a contender for one of the best medium tanks ingame... this is due to its immense anti infantry and utility potential while still having half decent anti armor... Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:38 PMSerrith You again seem to be operating under the assumption that the T-34 has something like a 10% chance to penetrate a Panzer 4 at all ranges. and youre under the assumption than a T-34 shouldnt be backing up when it sees a panzer 4... Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:38 PMSerrith And 2 panzer 4's lose to a single comet at 40 range. Should the panzer 4's be buffed? thats funny because ostheer actually has the panther... what medium tank does the soviet faction have beyond the T-34-76? Jump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 15:38 PMSerrith The question was: Is 120/100/80 penetration ok for a 90 fuel generalist tank whether its for soviets or USF or UKF or whatever. Stop dodging it and answer. I don't see T-34 in that question, do you? But just to be clear, I do think its a fair amount of penetration for 90 fuel. If you said that it should be +10, I would say that the fuel needs to be increased correspondingly-and you might agree. Except at that point we would be talking about a 100 fuel vehicle, which is outside the scope of the question. So I am going to repeat again: For 90 fuel, what is a reasonable amount of penetration? again how many times do i have to repeat my answer... again and again and again and again "increase its penetration to the point that it no longer loses a 3v2 against a panzer 4".... i dont know if its penetration needs to be increased by +10 or +20... it needs to be tested out as to what the ideal number should be SINCE THE ANSWER REQUIRES A SIMULATION... but whatever that ideal number is its the point where the T-34 starts winning against the panzer 4 in a 3v2 shootout.... now if you REALLY REALLY want an exact number as to what i think the answer is then id have to create my own mod to test it out... thats gonna take more time that i have to spend right now In: COH2 Balance