It wasn't saying it's average. I was talking about its old "average gun", which you brought up in the post I was quoting
It is pretty simply so I am not sure why you are confused.
When SU-85 was average one could argue that it could follow the design of time and have a secondary role as reckon especially since it was available with T-70. Once it become a good TD and the faction designed change it no longer has reason to have a secondary role.
I do not want to talk generally about the su85 performance, I think it's fine. I responded to something that you mentioned
If you do not want to generally speak about SU-85 I would suggest not to ask me it is OP on not.
I'm aware of which ability is which, I thought you were talking about stacking the two of them together, because you also mentioned that in this thread....
My posts are quite clear:
Focused vision should be changed since it stacks with tracking and Soviet already have great reckon tools.
A SU-85 with focus sight/tracking has better los than IRHT...
The ability should me move to vet 1, (SU-85 has little reason to have trucking to begin with) and become timed instead of toggle.
Because a TD should not have an ability that is a better versions of the 222's"Infantry Awareness" ability.
If one read them carefully it pretty clear that I have only compared tracking with infatry awareness and not with focus sight as you understood.
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Yeah and the average gun made sense before, and it doesn't now because of the armor values it has to fight. They overbuffed it with the pen bonuses, which they recently addressed. They also reduced focus sight recently, but you still think it's OP?
Su-85 main in no way average. The unit is an effective TD and thus it does not need secondary role as reckon vehicle.
Vet bonus penetration/focus sight changes where minor nerf. If you want to talk generally about SU-85 and it performance I suggest you start a thread about.
It is not "superior". It has a longer max range, but in a tiny cone and it comes with significant movement penalty
You can't really compare it to recon vehicles at all, they aren't locked behind t4 and don't cost 130 fuel. That matters a lot here because you're putting that investment at risk everytime you use this "superior" ability. It's not a good comparison to make at all
Pls read more carefully before responding.
"Focused Sight" is not the vet 1 ability of SU-85, "Tracking" is and tracking is actually better than "Infantry awareness" and "Detection mod" (available to 222/IRHT). |
It fits the dual role or dual use of the faction nicely.
The idea behind the "dual role" the some Soviet unit had was that they would average in both roles and might had made some sense back in day when SU-85 had an average gun.
Currently SU-85 has one of the best AT gun in game and it a good TD so it does not need a secondary role, especially with an reckon ability that is superior to abilities some reckon vehicles get. |
The are certain unit that have increased search radius and can detect them form further away. (most of them have such an icon)
Vamp44 ober are one of them.
Mine reveal them.
One can also reveal by damaging them with either indirect fire weapons or ballistic weapons.
But it is true that the camo is simply too good. |
That is factually incorrect.
40% sight increase -IS- that great on all units that have sight.
Its batshit insane on unvetted recon vehicles.
Its legit map hack on vetted recon vehicles.
Feel free to start a thread about scoping scopes if you want to talk about them.
Why?
Because a TD should not have an ability that is a better versions of the 222's"Infantry Awareness" ability. |
I disagree, soviets have most stock recon tools/abilities indeed but they are not passive like spotting scopes, they effect t70 and su85 in a negative way or cost muni per timed use, unlike spotting scopes pio's or volks sight when in cover.
The stock ability of SU-85 can be justified by spotting scope which is doctrinal ability and not that great unless on vetted reckon vehicle.
The su85 is considered the most balanced td by a lot of players, we dont need to lock a non problem behind vet. The stacking effect of focused sight and tracking is less strong because of the speed penalty focused sight gives along with it having a cooldown, wich can effect is survivability just as the speed debuff can.
Su-85 has not reason to have trucking as is vet 1 ability, it does need the extra sight nor the mini map info. |
Grand Offensive Doctrine
General:
A commander with some abilities that do not combine very well.
Suggestions:
For changes to PF/Panzer commander see Breakthrough/Elite armor
Stuka Smoke Drop
This ability is very cost efficient and espcailly for commander with a Heavy tank like. Imo the ability to be separated into two abilities. One just the smoke bombs without visions available to commander with other strong abilities and another with both smoke bomb and reckon planes available to weaker commanders like Luft.
Tiger Tank
The Command tiger idea is not really that good. Either turn this unit into a proper command vehicle with lower bases stat or scrap the whole aura approach and balance the unit without it.
Infrared StG44 Package
The upgrade although not bad it situational. Imo it would better if instead of upgrade it become a call in unit at CP 2-3 with 5 members armed with MP40/MP44 with grenades and interrogation that can upgrade with Vamp MP44 (with lower DPS). The reinforcement cost, time and vet bonuses should be tailor made for such a unit.
To make the ability available to more that one unit, one could rename the ability to "Assault rifle training" and experiment with adding a timed ability to VG that would allow them to use their ST44 in full auto mode making the weapon better at sort range but much worse at long range.
Panzer Commander
The ability has very poor synergy with commander since it not available to the Tiger or JP that can be used to support the Tiger.
Replace this ability with:
An off map
or
A loiter reckon plane
or
a versions breakthrough tactics
or
Valiant assault
or
105mm howitzer barrage
or
Infiltration tactics
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Focused vision should be changed since it stacks with tracking and Soviet already have great reckon tools.
A SU-85 with focus sight/tracking has better los than IRHT...
The ability should me move to vet 1, (SU-85 has little reason to have trucking to begin with) and become timed instead of toggle. |
1 MHT with 2 consequtive barrages.
That would probably only work vs very defensive opponents/inexperienced players and some luck.
The barrage is very slow needs more then 20 second to fire the 4 incendiary shots and has a cool-down of another 25 second and that is plenty of time to fire back on the mortar and force to stop the barrage.
When it was recently used against my garrisoned HMG it did not even force me to ungarrison.
In team game perspective light vehicles are generally less of a problem. Ostwind will continue to do AA while stug E can provide some minor support in late game tank combat too. Both has their merits.
If some one has tech to BP2 and has gained 5 CP his probably better off building something else.
I'm certain no one want to see a buff to the elephant doctrine, nor Storm doctrine.
We are talking about the ability and not the commanders. And it perfectly fine for weak abilities to exist to fill commander other very strong abilities. |
I disagree, I used it yesterday and even the day before, both cases it took only 2 barrages per emplacements. The same is true for Feuerstrum leig napalm, which imo is a bit more vulnerable.
You mean you used 2 MHT using 2 incendiary barrages? that do sot sound that great.
One can kill emplacement while investing less fuel.
Stug E has heat round, it ain't much but honestly the ostwind ain't that good against late game vehicles either. Plus stug e still has longer range.
Heat round is not AT weapon is a simply temporary snare with 40 damage...The problem is not late vehicles but light tanks which are Ost weakness and stug E does very little against them.
Many arty abilities are only good vs static targets. It is also good enough to hit infantry trying to capture a territory. Plus the delay may lead to some other unit walking into it.
Point here is that overwatch has far better trucking for no apparent reason.
Doesn't seem to take longer to deploy than tellers with pios. The big deal about riegel is that it can completely stop a tank, pretty much guaranteeing a kill. An engine damage tank on the other hand may still retreat into safety.
Also, 'Riegel is fine, the commander not much'?? One of them is the elephant doctrine which is still strong, the other one is Storm doctrine with recon + stuka bomb with lefh on top, neither seem bad.
You missed my point. Riegiel mines is fine but not as commander ability as commander ability it is weak.
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