Profile of JohnnyB

The things are quite complicated, I have to admit.

Virtually, a buffed raketen + faust combo should be enough for OKW's early game, stimulating also mine play IF shrecks not available. Tried this before shrecks for SPs where introduced.

Then, SP shrecks appeared and, as OKW, you have a quite big dilema. Let me explain:

Knowing that allied can spam light / medium tanks pretty fast and in sufficient numbers, you are tempted to have a good AT solution right from the first 7 minutes. Now here comes the difficulty:
- if you spam SPs and give them shrecks, that will be a fragile strategy, I personally tested this and SPs are not as survivable and spamable as volks. You may be overwhelmed by infantery and forced to retreat to often if you have an intelligent opponent - shrecked sturms are not that good vs infantry, no matter what anyone will say. You will gradualy lose map while hurting your finger pushin squad reinforcement key.
- if you want everything, meaning volks with stgs, faust use, SPs with shrecks, and so on, you will discover that your amo income will not be suited for that, so you will have to chose on what you will focus. Virtually, you have to decide if you want some strong volks or some AT SPs. You can't have both and make it count.

So at the end, Allied players should not be to concerned about shrecks on SPs after all. Surprisingly, I find it harder to use this OKW with shrecks on SPs than the previous OKW without this feature.

@JohnnyB, CartoonVillain

First let's establish some common grounds for the conversation:

1. Is either of you arguing that the veterancy of schrecked Sturmpioneers is OK? I am specifically targetting Vet3 (since they don't fix stun nades), Vet4 and Vet5.
2. Are you arguing that it's fair that OKW gets single-schrecked Sturmpios, while OST has to sacrifice a more expensive squad (which is also currently squishier) to get mobile AT?

If you already agree with points #1 and #2, then you also agree that Sturmpioneer Veterancy needs to be reined-in. This is exactly what this thread is all about. There is nothing more to argue about!

Strategywise, let's leave early-game openings aside for now, and see the repercussions of Schreck Sturms to the late-game.

I'm not arguing against a slower rate of gaining veterancy with SPs don't get me wrong.

The Late Game

Congrats. You have survived until the late-game with OKW. Regardless of what opening strategy you used to get there, you will inevitably start suffering from squad-wipes. My question to you, is which squads will you spend your manpower on to replace your losses?

Volksgrenadiers:
They now take much longer to Vet. On top of that you also have to spend munitions on the stg-upgrade for an AI-only squad. You will want one on the field, for the fausts, but not more than that
Obersoldaten:
This is an exclussively AI-only squad. It kind of sucks at Vet0, and if the enemy is already Vetted, you are going to have a hard time.
Sturmpioneers:
Why would you build ANYTHING else? Slap the panzerschreck upgrade, and they are combat ready (vs mediums). You benefit from faster repairs too. Finally, it won't be long until they reach Vet3 (with the stun nades). When you get 3 Sturms at Vet3, that's when the fun begins.

Is there ANY reason you would ever NOT replace your losses with Sturmpioneers? Given that the critical mass will be eventually built up, can you at least not acknowledge the issues that their insane Veterancy will introduce?

My answer for you: IT DEPENDS.
- I won't invest in Obersoldaten. I have by now alot of automatic weapons. Frankly, I am tempted to build zero Obersoldaten squads actualy.
- Volks. Yes, I am tempted to invest my MP to reinforce the squads IF I BASE my strategy on them, if enemy goes heavily on infantry spam. My vetted STG volks will be needed, that's for sure!
- Sturmpios. I can be tempted in investing MP to reinforce them, but again, IF I BASE my strategy on several sturms squads. However, it's tricky. They are more expensive, and the squad is fragile compared to volks, mainly due to the models' number. Remember, OKW problems relied in shrecks' carriers not srecks' performance.

Take note, depending on how game goes, I may have enough AT to make shreck investment not so worthy. And in such case STG volks are gold. Let me tell you something, from an OKW passionate perspective: In the new environement, it would be a mistake not to base your opening/strategy on several volks squads if you picked breaktrough, scavange, or special operations!

Early game

The reasons why you might want to consider a Sturm-heavy opening are the following:
- You get better garrison-clearing right off the bat (grenades aren't unlocked until schrecks and MG34's become available)
- There is better synergy between Sturms and MG34 than Volks and MG34. Sure, the enemy can smoke your MG34 and then what; they can't go on melee vs Sturms.

Or with your STG volks which is not a lesser problem and even cheaper!

This is essentially like OKW going back to the roots, when no incediary grenade was available, Sturms were more expensive and OKW had suppressing kubelwagen instead of the MG34.

My strat is the following:
- You need a kubel to make up for early capping. When it is time for your first push, you use the kubel to push enemy off the cover; vCoH-style. Sturms will then force a retreat

I am not using kubel. Not in the new patch. Why should I? I am the late game investment guy. In late game I will be behind with a small piece of land maybe but I will have a unit more that is reliable and can carry the game until the end.

- You buy one Volksgrenadier just to have access to fausts.

Nope. Not just for that

You do NOT upgrade schrecks until AFTER you have spotted an enemy vehicle. In the meantime, you keep the Volksgrenadier BEHIND your sturms, so that you always have a faust ready (so that the enemy can't surprise you with the vehicles)
- Immediately after upgrading either truck, queue up 2 MG34s. Your MG34s will now replace your kubel to support your pioneers pushing.

You may not even need MGs

- AFTER the enemy has fielded a vehicle, you start upgrading SOME sturms with schrecks. You start firing potshots at the enemy vehicle. Unless absolutely necessary, try not to finish off the enemy vehicle. That way your vet will start ticking.
- When you have had enough schrecks, you can repurpose the Volksgrenadier as a meatshield (to lead/scout for assaults). You don't need their emergency-faust anymore.

I understand now we have different views about how to use Volks and Sturms. But guess what. That is in fact the beauty of the patch. You can do anything you want with OKW!!

Relic. Just make the Hetzer a TD, what is supposed to be. Don't be afraid to give it good stats, just put a high price for it.

"Shreck back to volks" he said, hahaha. Not as I didn't foresee this....

The new OKW is catchy, gives you al the possibilities and combos you can think off, has sturdy and nicely balanced units (balanced = balance between performance and weaknesses, not balanced from game point of view!!), it's simply the perfect faction in a game with most imperfect factions. Therefore the actual status won't be maintained. The irony.

OPW is back again.

Aaaand twices ugly!

And all that just because you guys wanted shrecks removed from volks