Login

russian armor

Wehr weak penetration

  • This thread is locked
PAGES (13)down
17 Oct 2019, 02:09 AM
#101
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


This thing called flanking? No idea what that about.


Yes thats why the panther also has one of the best mobility stats ingame...


It seems you are forgetting a little tiny itti bitty detail...

TD BEATS ANY OTHER TANK, PANTHERS ARE ALSO TDs...

Therefore, if "heavy tank destroyers" are beating panther, why isnt the other way around? If both are by definition, tank destroyers.
But to make matters worse, those called "heavy tank destroyers" are also by performance "medium tank destroyers"
Panthers vs allied premium mediums, get outmatched by cost effectiveness, not on a dumb idle fight maybe, but on one involving real and medium skilled players, panthers often get outnumbered or outranged



1. The panther is a premium medium not a heavy tank destroyer... with the pintle MG the panther can do decent damage vs infantry
2. The panther is very much capable of 1v1 soloing any heavy tank destroyer... what it cant do is win a 2v1 or a 1(+support)v1... which is appropriate
3. The panther also gets amazing mobility on top of its high armor and hp... use it
17 Oct 2019, 05:01 AM
#102
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

I will disagree on most of the above. I think this discussion has done good to open up the issues.

Started with the inadequate pen and moving further on cost effectiveness.

Panther mobility is nothing of amazing when you consider others effects in play. Pen, range, accuracy, vet bonus, rotation. Sure speed is good but i believe other cheaper allies tanks are similar or better. Yet panther AT capability is lacking for its cost and the whole unit is poor scaling.

The armor, besides invalidated against vet 60TD, is 50% lousy at 90/99. I started this topic purposely did not post those allies rear/side armor values, which will surprise all.

Only thing i agreed is the higher hp pool.

So what you did to handwave old thoughts i disagree. Today games do not match these dated conveniences. Let the past go, forgot it if you have to realise the issues at hand.

Like 50cal,dskh,tank commander > mg42 pintle. Small things not presented
17 Oct 2019, 07:13 AM
#104
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

I dont really see the OPs point. The pak 40 is tied for the best penetration on a non doc at gun. The stug sits at a perfect middle ground penetration wise between the cheaper su76 or m10 and the more expensive su85 and Jacksons. I dont see how you can criticize the Panthers excellent penetration. The panzer 4 is the only unit in ostheer roster that has penetration that is SLIGHTLY below average for cost, but it exchanges it for armor.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 02:09 AMgbem


Yes thats why the panther also has one of the best mobility stats ingame...

3. The panther also gets amazing mobility on top of its high armor and hp... use it


The panther has fine mobility but it really isnt this speed demon you are making it out to be. Stock its slower than comet valentine cromwell and m10, and its speed and acceleration only marginally exceed that of most other allied mediums.

With vet most(non heavy) allied tanks end up substantially faster than the panther including the su85(!), with exception of the su76, the jackson, the firefly and the centaur.
17 Oct 2019, 07:52 AM
#105
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 07:13 AMSerrith
The panther has fine mobility but it really isnt this speed demon you are making it out to be. Stock its slower than comet valentine cromwell and m10, and its speed and acceleration only marginally exceed that of most other allied mediums.


B l i t z
17 Oct 2019, 07:59 AM
#106
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



B l i t z

Comet, Valentine, Cromwell and m10 "w a r s p e e d" ("Flanking speed")
17 Oct 2019, 10:58 AM
#107
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 07:13 AMSerrith
I dont really see the OPs point. The pak 40 is tied for the best penetration on a non doc at gun. The stug sits at a perfect middle ground penetration wise between the cheaper su76 or m10 and the more expensive su85 and Jacksons. I dont see how you can criticize the Panthers excellent penetration. The panzer 4 is the only unit in ostheer roster that has penetration that is SLIGHTLY below average for cost, but it exchanges it for armor.

thats because the OP is in denial on how horrible of a player he is... this is a guy that loses panthers to AECs....

this is also the guy that made this joke of a comment
jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 14:45 PMmrgame2


I cite another example that a Cromwell can hit Elefant with more pain than a P4 can hit a Croc.


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 07:13 AMSerrith

The panther has fine mobility but it really isnt this speed demon you are making it out to be. Stock its slower than comet valentine cromwell and m10, and its speed and acceleration only marginally exceed that of most other allied mediums.

With vet most(non heavy) allied tanks end up substantially faster than the panther including the su85(!), with exception of the su76, the jackson, the firefly and the centaur.


though it isnt the fastest tank ingame it is definitely up there as one of the fastest non light tanks ingame... the panther is simply a tank with
1. the penetration of an allied heavy tank destroyer
2. the HP pool of a heavy
3. the speed of a medium

to deny all of the panther`s advantages and ask for EVEN MORE buffs is just further evidence of a l2p issue
17 Oct 2019, 13:11 PM
#108
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



B l i t z

Even with blitz the panther is actually still slower than many allied mediums with vet. For example the T-34/76 has a top speed of 7.8 with vet while the panther is 7.59 with blitz.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 10:58 AMgbem


though it isnt the fastest tank ingame it is definitely up there as one of the fastest non light tanks ingame... the panther is simply a tank with
1. the penetration of an allied heavy tank destroyer
2. the HP pool of a heavy
3. the speed of a medium

to deny all of the panther`s advantages and ask for EVEN MORE buffs is just further evidence of a l2p issue


While I disagree with the OP vehemently I dont think that just because a tank has objective stat advantages over its counterparts, that tank isnt underperforming in some way or may be overpriced.

The argument could have been made for the comet that it is ACTUALLLY one of the fastest vehicles in the game period and had superior armor to the panther as well as stock smoke+WP, crew grenades for fighting AT guns, great AP values and a bonus +10 sight from the commander. Despite all that the comet was still underperforming for its price.

The panther may or may not need a buff or a tweak but I dont think increasing its penetration is one needed.
17 Oct 2019, 13:14 PM
#109
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

the panther doesnt need any tweaks imo... the balance between allied mediums and TDs and axis mediums and TDs are far more balanced than it was before... the only vehicles id take a look at are the StuG (its veterancy may need tweaks since TWP kinda sucks) the T-34 (ram sucks) and the JP4 (lago`s discussion covers this)
17 Oct 2019, 13:45 PM
#110
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 13:14 PMgbem
the panther doesnt need any tweaks imo... the balance between allied mediums and TDs and axis mediums and TDs are far more balanced than it was before... the only vehicles id take a look at are the StuG (its veterancy may need tweaks since TWP kinda sucks) the T-34 (ram sucks) and the JP4 (lago`s discussion covers this)



I think an argument could be made for the Panthers veterancy which is somewhat lackluster after the HP was shifted to being stock and the armor was nerfed resulting in a lower overall increase at vet 2. Perhaps a +10% top speed bonus at vet 2 or a slightly bigger armor increase.


I digress, if there is an issue with Wehr anti vehicle capabilities it cant be found in the penetration values of their units.
17 Oct 2019, 13:50 PM
#111
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 13:45 PMSerrith



I think an argument could be made for the Panthers veterancy which is somewhat lackluster after the HP was shifted to being stock and the armor was nerfed resulting in a lower overall increase at vet 2. Perhaps a +10% top speed bonus at vet 2 or a slightly bigger armor increase.


I digress, if there is an issue with Wehr anti vehicle capabilities it cant be found in the penetration values of their units.

I agree that the armor bonuses of axis vehicles including the panther are a bit lackluster.

Generally I would try replacing x % armor bonuses with + armor since the low rear armor values of vehicles make the bonus almost useless for half the vehicle.
17 Oct 2019, 14:10 PM
#112
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

hmm i dont feel a panther veterancy buff is necessary... its already quite easy to let it survive and vet up since its quite a durable tank...

truly however... what wehr desperately needs is a shock light vehicle to fit in the "light vehicle meta" we have today.... and yes the flametruck and the 222 are well balanced and good... but they arent really the highlights of the mechanized meta which brings ost down significantly in the midgame right until they get their first panzer 4...
17 Oct 2019, 14:12 PM
#113
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 13:50 PMVipper

Generally I would try replacing x % armor bonuses with + armor since the low rear armor values of vehicles make the bonus almost useless for half the vehicle.


I've been actually thinking this myself lately.

That said, the panzer 4 armor bonus is quite decent for ostheer, and the StuG hits near that threshold where stuff isnt guaranteed to pen anymore. Just the panther has a crap armor bonus (+26) vs the P4 with +54 and stug with +42.
17 Oct 2019, 14:15 PM
#114
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Glad we are getting somewhere again.

I think Panther needs a pen buff. So does Stug so does P4.

Panther pen is good but not excellent. When allies 60TD pen can scale so much better with vet, so much it invalidates Panther vet armor...so much Wehr tanks (besides Elefant) have trouble pen Allies heavy armor...roles have switched, no?

Tiger pen is not excellent too....i mean worse than IS2?

Pen buff in the case of HEAT rounds at vet 2, you must also upgraded pintle to unlock. Pintle is weak for its price too.

I like the recognition panther vet2 armor skirts bonus are crap now. Blitz vet is also less crap, but less useful vet in comparison to others.

I will replace +10% armor with +10% HP and see how. It may help survive some deflected shots or handheld AT.

Or just simply give it +160 HP, but i doubt allies players will support this one. hehe
17 Oct 2019, 14:17 PM
#115
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

nobody. wants. a. panther. pen. buff. retard.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:15 PMmrgame2

Tiger pen is not excellent too....i mean worse than IS2?


in what universe does a tiger have more penetration than an IS-2?
17 Oct 2019, 14:21 PM
#116
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:15 PMmrgame2

I think Panther needs a pen buff. So does Stug so does P4.


The only vehicle here which has mediocre penetration is the panzer 4 and the reason for this is because of its armor compared to other tanks of similar cost.

For 90 fuel a stug has 180/190/200 penetration which is very acceptable for how much it costs, no other vehicle under 100 fuel has that kind of penetration after the su76 was nerfed. If you want to increase the penetration you will need to increase the cost.

The panther has excellent penetration and is one of the panther's greatest strengths. It has a very high chance to penetrate everything but the super heavies, which it still trades cost efficiently with.
17 Oct 2019, 14:22 PM
#117
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:21 PMSerrith
The only vehicle here which has mediocre penetration is the panzer 4 and the reason for this is because of its armor compared to other tanks of similar cost.


The P4's penetration is in line with other medium tanks.
17 Oct 2019, 14:24 PM
#119
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Pen buff using HEAT will cost ammo and must be managed with cooldown and all. Thats my suggestions.

PAGES (13)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

498 users are online: 3 members and 495 guests
NorthWeapon, Nickbn, A_E
19 posts in the last 24h
45 posts in the last week
99 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44645
Welcome our newest member, otorusqtwk
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM