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russian armor

Wehr weak penetration

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16 Oct 2019, 04:59 AM
#41
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 03:07 AMVipper

Now check the cost difference between a T-34/85 with a PzIV and a Sherman with a Panther. Actually if one's opponent is spamming allied mediums making Panther is not the best response, one would probably do better making stugs or PzIVs.


You didnt stop at premiums, you said heavies and super heavies make p4 obselete. Check that cost difference, thats a lot more extreme than panther vs medium

The panther is absolutely relevant, its literally one of the things the thread is about. You can say its a different type of unit, but it still outclasses allied mediums. Super heavies are a different type of unit too...

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 03:07 AMVipper


Bottom line is that PzIV is not a very good investment because it has a high cost for the window of opportunity it has. Which has become smaller with the changes to Super heavies.


Bottom line is the same is true for the stock allied mediums. The window for all medium tanks became shorter with super heavy change, this is not just ostheer
16 Oct 2019, 05:48 AM
#42
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

1) Ostheer panther has high tech and high cost
2) Panther has little AI and can be countered by ATGs or TDs or even swarmed by mediums
3) Panther has very low rear armor and can be penetrated by mediums even when vet 2
4) Allied mediums have extra utility like smoke rounds, ram, extended vision, HE rounds
5) Allied premium, heavies and super heavies can put fight vs a Panther (they might not be to 1v1 but they can damage it and fight when supported)
6) As I have pointed allies have little reason to built medium since they can do with up-gunned infatry and TDs
7) You missed my point the part you quoted I mentioned "allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear" Panther is not any of those vehicles.

PzIV H for instance that is premium for Ostheer does not make allied mediums obsolete.



Panther is expensive and sucks against massed ATG wall? Who would have thought.

It's a good thing it comes in a tier with rocket arty then isn't it? Something Brits can't say the same for comet. Panther is fine and so is P4.
16 Oct 2019, 06:54 AM
#43
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

fixed


Thanks! I forgot that brumbar armor nerf. Somehow things get quicker against axis armor.

Again the discussions we need to look at why the view that axis have such lower pen values still?

Is a little more hp but against plenty of 160 standard damage or faster speed but lousier rotation rof or accuracy, or not enough relevant vet bonus?

Do these older design choices not be reviewed just because Wehr is considered 'base template'? Yes unit composition, build order, availability, i don't deny Wehr is good faction. But Performance per cost per counters, have they kept up with all the changes? That's a no imo
16 Oct 2019, 07:13 AM
#44
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 06:54 AMmrgame2


Thanks! I forgot that brumbar armor nerf. Somehow things get quicker against axis armor.

Again the discussions we need to look at why the view that axis have such lower pen values still?

Is a little more hp but against plenty of 160 standard damage or faster speed but lousier rotation rof or accuracy, or not enough relevant vet bonus?

Do these older design choices not be reviewed just because Wehr is considered 'base template'? Yes unit composition, build order, availability, i don't deny Wehr is good faction. But Performance per cost per counters, have they kept up with all the changes? That's a no imo

Axis tanks do not have low pen. Mediums can fight other mediums and have similar pen chances against Allied heavies as if it were the other way around (slightly better for slightly higher base cost). AT gun is one of the best in the game, Panther can pen almost everything quite reliably.

In tank vs tank battles, Axis mediums perform to their cost even vs most premium mediums. There might be dome balance issues (can't look at every matchup atm), but there the problem lies not within the general performance of Axis (and OST especially) tanks
16 Oct 2019, 07:41 AM
#45
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

So, from what I understand by reading this thread, people are quarrelling that the most favourite and most built axis tanks in CoH2, which are fully capable of performing their allocated tasks undisputedly better than most allied tanks, are not totally the best tanks in the game? People are claiming that these Axis tanks are only placed close #2nd or #3rd best depending on dry disconnected stats but not on match-up and gameplay? People argue that these axis tanks are not overall #1 at everything but axis tanks should be the very best at everything? And that these Axis tanks should survive enemy ATGs, TDs, and premium doctrine tanks and axis tanks should always win in any condition? That's exactly what I read and what people posted - I'd say this thread is just 100% concentrated axis bias juice.
16 Oct 2019, 07:50 AM
#46
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

I won't call it 100% axis juice.

More like those more familiar with the good and bad of Wehr and trying to bring up the forgotten brushed aside normals today.

The point is allies AT were given much thoughts to counter axis heavy armor over time. So much so that a little forgotten pieces have deposited to Wehr AT in regards to pen.
16 Oct 2019, 07:55 AM
#47
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Little forgotten pieces such as ukf tank commander upgrade to comet/cromwell/FF. People were crying how bad vet 0 ukf tanks are, but forgotten the vet bonus and upgrades that boost critical performance greater
16 Oct 2019, 08:25 AM
#48
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 07:50 AMmrgame2
I won't call it 100% axis juice.

More like those more familiar with the good and bad of Wehr and trying to bring up the forgotten brushed aside normals today.

The point is allies AT were given much thoughts to counter axis heavy armor over time. So much so that a little forgotten pieces have deposited to Wehr AT in regards to pen.


Because axis have more acces to heaviest armour then allies do. Both having premium mediums/tankhunters (penning any vehicles allies can field stock pretty easely to always) non doc with 260 armour and 950ish hp, both being quite fast.
Thats just for starters, now add the non doc kt and the amount doctrines with tigers in it.

Allied at stopped being reliable against anything bigger then a p4.
Thats why allied at got buffed, needing doctrines just to be able to compete, or put in a lot more effort and recources to deal with non doc stuff was imbalanced to say the least.

Axis have no issues dealing with allied stock armour, except the chuchill as i hear, i never fought a chuchill as axis so cant comment on that.


16 Oct 2019, 08:27 AM
#49
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

The panther isnt meant to counter the IS2... its meant to counter allied mediums... use your own superheavy tanks/tds to counter the IS2...

And if you think that allied heavy TDs shouldnt be countering panthers then youve admitted bias...

Then again we should just ignore this troll thread from the guy that loses panthers to AECS like a scrub...
16 Oct 2019, 09:34 AM
#50
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 232

The Pak 40 and Stug should certainly have more penetration
16 Oct 2019, 09:45 AM
#51
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1093

We can raise pen values if they raise allied armour values at the same time ;)
16 Oct 2019, 10:11 AM
#52
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 08:27 AMgbem
The panther isnt meant to counter the IS2... its meant to counter allied mediums... use your own superheavy tanks/tds to counter the IS2...

And if you think that allied heavy TDs shouldnt be countering panthers then youve admitted bias...

Then again we should just ignore this troll thread from the guy that loses panthers to AECS like a scrub...
m sorry, which TD I'm supposed to use ? Both jp4 a d stug have weak pen and the stug even has 50 range
16 Oct 2019, 10:20 AM
#53
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 08:27 AMgbem
The panther isnt meant to counter the IS2... its meant to counter allied mediums... use your own superheavy tanks/tds to counter the IS2...

And if you think that allied heavy TDs shouldnt be countering panthers then youve admitted bias...

Then again we should just ignore this troll thread from the guy that loses panthers to AECS like a scrub...

Panther very much IS meant to counter IS-2.
That doesn't mean it has to pen every shot, just like allied TDs bounce off of KT.
16 Oct 2019, 10:49 AM
#54
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Panther is expensive and sucks against massed ATG wall? Who would have thought.

It's a good thing it comes in a tier with rocket arty then isn't it? Something Brits can't say the same for comet. Panther is fine and so is P4.

Panther and Comet have different roles. One is a TD the other is main battle tank.

Comet actually has tools to attack ATGs like war speed/grenades or WP shells
16 Oct 2019, 10:55 AM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


You didnt stop at premiums, you said heavies and super heavies make p4 obselete. Check that cost difference, thats a lot more extreme than panther vs medium

The panther is absolutely relevant, its literally one of the things the thread is about. You can say its a different type of unit, but it still outclasses allied mediums. Super heavies are a different type of unit too...

Again Panther is neither a premium nor a heavy nor a Super heavy it is a TD. Any comparison of the Panther has to be with FF/SU-85/M-36. All 3 of them are more cost efficient counter to meduims than Panther is.


Bottom line is the same is true for the stock allied mediums. The window for all medium tanks became shorter with super heavy change, this is not just ostheer

Yes that is true difference here is that Ostheer need vehicles to attack in mid game and allies do not.
16 Oct 2019, 11:17 AM
#56
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

m sorry, which TD I'm supposed to use ? Both jp4 a d stug have weak pen and the stug even has 50 range


JT KT Tiger Elefant... a panther shouldnt be able to solo IS-2s in a 1 on 1 counter just as an SU-85 cant solo a tiger in a 1 on 1 engagement...
16 Oct 2019, 11:19 AM
#57
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 10:20 AMKatitof

Panther very much IS meant to counter IS-2.
That doesn't mean it has to pen every shot, just like allied TDs bounce off of KT.


only en masse... most certainly not on a 1v1 setup support considered...its a doctrinal lategame heavy after all... and if an SU-85 isnt gonna beat a tiger or a KT on a 1 on 1... why should a panther be capable of soloing an IS-2?
16 Oct 2019, 11:23 AM
#58
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 10:55 AMVipper

Again Panther is neither a premium nor a heavy nor a Super heavy it is a TD. Any comparison of the Panther has to be with FF/SU-85/M-36. All 3 of them are more cost efficient counter to meduims than Panther is.


And a p4 is not a premium, heavy, or super heavy. Yet you still compare them

And again the panther is what this thread is about

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 10:55 AMVipper

Yes that is true difference here is that Ostheer need vehicles to attack in mid game and allies do not.


Bullshit, soviets need t70. USF needs Stuart or FlakHT, and Brits usually need AEC. Would love to see you winning competitive match without building any vehicle until TDs

Do you have a suggestion here? Do you want p4 pen buffed? Allied TDs nerfed?
16 Oct 2019, 11:31 AM
#59
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



And a p4 is not a premium, heavy, or super heavy. Yet you still compare them...

I did not compare the PzIV with heavies premium or super heavies. I simply pointed out that they outclass the PzIV making an investment that is the one of least cost efficient.


Bullshit, soviets need t70. USF needs Stuart or FlakHT, and Brits usually need AEC. Would love to see you winning competitive match without building any vehicle until TDs

As wish I will rephrase, Ostheer need mediums tank to attack more than allies do.
16 Oct 2019, 11:33 AM
#60
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 11:31 AMVipper

I did not compare the PzIV with heavies premium or super heavies. I simply pointed out that they outclass the PzIV


And the exact same it true for panther, axis heavies, and super heavies against allied mediums. Difference is panther is stock, none of those are unless your brits

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 11:31 AMVipper

As wish I will rephrase, Ostheer need mediums tank to attack more than allies do.


Yeah and allies need TDs more than axis do... You have succeeded in pointing out that the factions are not identical
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