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Can blobing be addressed directly

14 Oct 2019, 19:29 PM
#1
avatar of Pereat

Posts: 50

Some of the game balance changes have been made with blobing in mind. Could the issue be tackled not by changing unit stats but by adding diminishing-returns on combining groups of the same unit.

My proposition is if possible add an individual aura to each squad (similar to officers, command tanks etc.) that for example give -2% accuracy if there are two units of the same type with overlapping auras, -10% accuracy if there are 3 units of the same type in relatively close proximity and so on.. That would at least help with a-move blobs and encourage combined arms.
14 Oct 2019, 19:45 PM
#2
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1294

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2019, 19:29 PMPereat
Some of the game balance changes have been made with blobing in mind. Could the issue be tackled not by changing unit stats but by adding diminishing-returns on combining groups of the same unit.

My proposition is if possible add an individual aura to each squad (similar to officers, command tanks etc.) that for example give -2% accuracy if there are two units of the same type with overlapping auras, -10% accuracy if there are 3 units of the same type in relatively close proximity and so on.. That would at least help with a-move blobs and encourage combined arms.


People have suggested that several times and it didn't go anywhere. I think it would be difficult to program and likely to be bugged if they tried it. The best solution to it would be to improve the couple of underperforming MG's so they worked okay on blobs. Specifically, the Maxim needs something.
14 Oct 2019, 20:05 PM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13773 | Subs: 7

It was addressed directly, everything that could wipe a blob was nerfed to the ground long time ago.
14 Oct 2019, 20:14 PM
#4
avatar of Grining Cat

Posts: 39

Pereat, three questions,

which faction do you play?
which gamemode? 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? 4v4?
which faction´s blob is most annoying?
14 Oct 2019, 20:31 PM
#5
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2019, 20:05 PMKatitof
It was addressed directly, everything that could wipe a blob was nerfed to the ground long time ago.

Pretty much this. Not only was everything punishing to blobs nerfed, many to the point you don't see them at all anymore nearly ever but the design direction of WFA is so weapon upgrade focused that it makes bobbing even more rewarding because your squads have their DPS more focused which means things like mgs get massive amounts of concentrated fire rendering them ineffective if RNG wills it and dropping enemy models doesn't diminish DPS by any meaningful amount so even taking losses blobs stay potent. It's especially egregious when NOT using weapon upgrades (either using a faction/units that lack them or because they are *ahem* "optional")

Punishing bad play is a no no. Blobs are the way the game is SUPPOSED to be played and this is backed up by just about every design and balance decision in the last long while. Units are just much more "independent" now which means you get massive amounts of cost effectiveness exponential returns when tactically grouping them together in a blob like fashion. Doesn't help that every damn gun now pretty well improves damage on the move at at range meaning literally moving your ball of death is as easy as ever....
14 Oct 2019, 20:49 PM
#6
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

What if weapon upgrades were changed so that focus fire = false like in case of a BAR? Wouldn't that help MGs so infantry squads don't insta-kill the gunner before getting suppressed? Instead they would be firing at all MG models and not just the closest one, or do I just not understand how the 'focus fire' mechanic works? Imho this would indirectly buff MG vs infantry and thus punish blobs more efficiently.
14 Oct 2019, 20:50 PM
#7
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1294

Pereat, three questions,

which faction do you play?
which gamemode? 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? 4v4?
which faction´s blob is most annoying?


You can see the answers to the first two questions by checking his player card. He plays a lot of Soviet and UKF. I'd bet his answer to the third question is OKW with Panzerfusiliers. PGrens can be difficult also because of their grenades.
14 Oct 2019, 21:58 PM
#8
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1941

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2019, 20:05 PMKatitof
It was addressed directly, everything that could wipe a blob was nerfed to the ground long time ago.


demos and...?
14 Oct 2019, 22:10 PM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1



demos and...?

Sturmtiger, AVRE, most off maps, most rockets act more like a deterrent than a punishment because they could well miss entirely as likley as they are to hit entirely but if you manage to escape the initial impact you are pretty much good to go.
MGs are less effective than before because of the focused dps they face and some just plain don't work well at all.

Basicly anything that could be annoying or if something vastly more expensive being used at a single squad causing complaint (they used their 200 fuel 1 shot a minute bunker buster against my combat engies and they died! Needs nerfs! Or the enemy laid a 90mu trap and I walked into it!)
14 Oct 2019, 22:10 PM
#10
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4490

demos and...?


Machine guns and rocket artillery used to be the main blob counters. Machine Guns were always susceptible to a big enough blob, and rocket artillery only Axis have good ones.
14 Oct 2019, 22:27 PM
#11
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1941



and rocket artillery only Axis have good ones.


?? Both katyusha and calliope are good at killing blobs
14 Oct 2019, 22:28 PM
#12
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1941


Sturmtiger, AVRE, most off maps, most rockets act more like a deterrent than a punishment because they could well miss entirely as likley as they are to hit entirely but if you manage to escape the initial impact you are pretty much good to go.


Sturmtiger actually got buffed against blobs and not nerfed. Rocket artillery is still very good and pls tell me about an anti blob offmap strike that got nerfed
14 Oct 2019, 22:40 PM
#13
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1294



?? Both katyusha and calliope are good at killing blobs


On some maps, even the walking Stuka is good. One of my friends got 41 kills on his first strike on Essen. Blobbing was severely reduced after that.

I think the OP was frustrated because Soviets don't have great counters before the Katy. The Maxim buff didn't go far enough.
14 Oct 2019, 22:53 PM
#14
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 330 | Subs: 1

What if weapon upgrades were changed so that focus fire = false like in case of a BAR? Wouldn't that help MGs so infantry squads don't insta-kill the gunner before getting suppressed? Instead they would be firing at all MG models and not just the closest one, or do I just not understand how the 'focus fire' mechanic works? Imho this would indirectly buff MG vs infantry and thus punish blobs more efficiently.


As far as I know, most weapon upgrades already have focus fire = false. Focus fire on slot weapons is usually the exception, not the rule.
14 Oct 2019, 22:54 PM
#15
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1



Sturmtiger actually got buffed against blobs and not nerfed. Rocket artillery is still very good and pls tell me about an anti blob offmap strike that got nerfed

Sturmtiger is still absolutely trash though. It takes so long to aim AND doesn't actually "punish" blobs, it'll kill some models near where it hit (as long as there is no fence or air in between) and sort of Supress the others. It used to nuke blobs.
Reread what I said about rockets. If the first set of rockets don't hit you are home free, alternatively they could all hit and be devistating. It's Russian roulette.

And all off maps used to be more potent, not SPECIFICALLY nerfed, but less effective no less.
14 Oct 2019, 23:07 PM
#16
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4490

?? Both katyusha and calliope are good at killing blobs


The Panzerwerfer always felt more effective to me, the Katyusha feels like I need 2 of them for the same effect. Or rather, it feels like the Panzerwerfer's damage all comes down at once while the Katyusha's is spread over a much longer period of time and lacks suppression, so it's considerably more forgiving when you get hit by it. The Stuka zu Fuß is no contest though, it's a precision strike and hurts like hell. I haven't experienced the Calliope enough to make a call on that one, but it's also not a stock unit like the other 3. On the other hand the Land Mattress is just awful even though it's also not a stock unit.
14 Oct 2019, 23:19 PM
#17
avatar of Grining Cat

Posts: 39



You can see the answers to the first two questions by checking his player card. He plays a lot of Soviet and UKF. I'd bet his answer to the third question is OKW with Panzerfusiliers. PGrens can be difficult also because of their grenades.


Thank you EffenNewbie :) My question were answered that way :)


Short Instructions to counter Blobs:

-Mines are great! Forget about the Geneva Convention and spam them!
Just remember that, "every mine shoots down a flying swine :)
This is especially punishing for 4 men Axis squads.

-Demolition charges are a bit more difficult to pull off. Place them behind buildings, sightblocker or in bushes.

-MG gunner guys are always shortsighted. No idea why, but you need to adapt to that fact. Thats why a MGs always need a second squad to spot for them. ("Spotter squads" give vision and act as a meatshield, keep that in mind. An isolated MG can´t stop 3-4 squads.)

-Since you play mostly allies...well....actually allies are better at blobbing, just make your own awesome blob

-Grenades are good to punish "heavy tactial battlegroups". Try to throw them over hegdes or sigthblockers.

-Any light vehicle with suppression is also great to stop infantry blobs
14 Oct 2019, 23:21 PM
#18
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2

This has been brought up before a long time ago but to answer the OP's question of a nerf aura for blobs -

A friend of mine implemented something like it in his CoH mod. Problem is you cannot assign an aura to a squad but to an entity, as in the infantry models in said squad. It works, however if you thought the game was not optimized before you're gonna get a headache now because this puts extra strain on the CPU since now it needs to recalculate each infantry model's aura on the map to detect if there is another infantry model near it to apply a debuff.

1v1s might not suffer as much but you can probably imagine what that would mean for higher game modes and especially 4v4s.

This is of course putting it all in layman's terms but it's the best I can do.
14 Oct 2019, 23:32 PM
#19
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

What if weapon upgrades were changed so that focus fire = false like in case of a BAR? Wouldn't that help MGs so infantry squads don't insta-kill the gunner before getting suppressed? Instead they would be firing at all MG models and not just the closest one, or do I just not understand how the 'focus fire' mechanic works? Imho this would indirectly buff MG vs infantry and thus punish blobs more efficiently.


The focus fire = false scatter radius is quite small, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't make a difference against an HMG crew that's spaced out (like in a yellow crater or just in the open). Might occasionally make a difference against an HMG that's hugging cover, but only if the gunner gets targeted early on.

In infantry vs infantry fights, it would be a pretty substantial nerf to LMG squads. Focus fire = false is plain inferior compared to focus fire = true once healing stops being a big factor. Enemy models drop more faster, which means you do more reliable manpower damage and the DPS of your opponents squad drops off more quickly.
15 Oct 2019, 00:28 AM
#20
avatar of Pereat

Posts: 50

Pereat, three questions,

which faction do you play?
which gamemode? 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? 4v4?
which faction´s blob is most annoying?


EffenNewbie is right - 1v1 and 2v2 with UKF and Soviets.

The most common blobs im seeing are falls, STG44 volks and G43 grens. So basically anything with good moving accuracy.

Mines are not that great on bigger maps and mgs are terrible. Even two squads of bren IS can take an mg head on not to mention okw and long range nades of ost.
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