So I was wondering how an early to mid-game build of the Allied factions compares in price. Each build contains of 4 mainline infantry units + AT gun + MG + 1 engineer unit + 1 LV + Heal
UKF
(including bolster + 3 med upgrades + 1 pyro upgrade for Sections, Vickers, 6 pounder, AEC +tech , Sapper)
2422 + 140 Fuel + 135 Muni
USF
(2 RM, CPT, LT, 50 cal, M1 ATG, Battalion upgrade+ Stuart, Ambulance)
2180 MP + 170 Fuel
Soviet
( 4 Cons, Maxim, Zis, T70, Molotov + AT grenade)
2655 MP + 190 Fuel
How is this fair when you consider both quality of units + cost?
The ressource mathematics of Allied factions
14 Oct 2019, 18:23 PM
#1
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
14 Oct 2019, 18:35 PM
#2
Posts: 818
I think soviet tech structures just cost an absurd amount of manpower for the way the game is right now considering they take an engineer be in base and build them.
Particularly t1/2. Building a 160 manpower structure is quite a lot when it doesn't give you anything better than the 80 mp ost barracks or the 100 mp t2. Building it minute 1 is killer on field presence.
That said soviets seem strong to me lategame if you can get past the expensive midgame with the good doctrinal tanks and cost effective infantry.
Notes on the Costs- I think you could add healing in there for soviets and USF since it is there for brits. I would take out the moltov as more than half of players skip it and nobody else has nades.You also don't have an RE in there, and I don't know if you added the battalion upgrade for a stewart unlock since its not listed.
Particularly t1/2. Building a 160 manpower structure is quite a lot when it doesn't give you anything better than the 80 mp ost barracks or the 100 mp t2. Building it minute 1 is killer on field presence.
That said soviets seem strong to me lategame if you can get past the expensive midgame with the good doctrinal tanks and cost effective infantry.
Notes on the Costs- I think you could add healing in there for soviets and USF since it is there for brits. I would take out the moltov as more than half of players skip it and nobody else has nades.You also don't have an RE in there, and I don't know if you added the battalion upgrade for a stewart unlock since its not listed.
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14 Oct 2019, 18:36 PM
#3
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
I think soviet tech structures just cost an absurd amount of manpower for the way the game is right now considering they take an engineer be in base and build them.
Particularly t1/2. Building a 160 manpower structure is quite a lot when it doesn't give you anything better than the 80 mp ost barracks or the 100 mp t2. Building it minute 1 is killer on field presence.
That said soviets seem strong to me lategame if you can get past the expensive midgame with the good doctrinal tanks and cost effective infantry.
Notes on the Costs- I think you could add healing in there for soviets and USF since it is there for brits. I would take out the moltov as more than half of players skip it and nobody else has nades.You also don't have an RE in there, and I don't know if you added the battalion upgrade for a stewart unlock since its not listed.
The healing is included for USF and Soviets. Same as the battalion upgrade. Molotov is included just because without it 4 Cons can not be compared whatsoever to 4 Rifles/Sections in terms of combat strength.There is no rear echelon in there because USF start with it.
14 Oct 2019, 18:41 PM
#4
Posts: 320
Mollies and AT nades for cons sadly boost the cost a lot and T70 comes late due to its performance, I believe this is why the cost is elevated for SOV. Can you do the same comparison for OST and OKW? I would like to see how they match.
14 Oct 2019, 18:41 PM
#5
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Mollies and AT nades for cons sadly boost the cost a lot and T70 comes late due to its performance, I believe this is why the cost is elevated for SOV. Can you do the same comparison for OST and OKW? I would like to see how they match.
Ok give me a few minutes.
14 Oct 2019, 18:45 PM
#6
Posts: 1947
Is that using the new price of the Captain and Lt? Also, shouldn't you add in the cost of grenades and possibly weapon racks for USF also?
The Captain and LT still seem too cheap in terms of manpower and too expensive in terms of fuel. I haven't played 1v1's in years so maybe there is a reason for the prices being the way they are.
Cons seem overpriced, especially when cons have to buy both types of grenades and pay a muni cost for each squad to go to 7 models. The Maxim would need a buff to its arc and suppression to be worth 260. That said, I'm not sure how they could change these without making the T70 arrive earlier.
The Captain and LT still seem too cheap in terms of manpower and too expensive in terms of fuel. I haven't played 1v1's in years so maybe there is a reason for the prices being the way they are.
Cons seem overpriced, especially when cons have to buy both types of grenades and pay a muni cost for each squad to go to 7 models. The Maxim would need a buff to its arc and suppression to be worth 260. That said, I'm not sure how they could change these without making the T70 arrive earlier.
14 Oct 2019, 18:48 PM
#7
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
OKW
4 Volks Luchs Rak MG34 + 3 sets of med from Sturms
2115 MP + 120 Fuel + 135 Muni
Ost
4 Grens, Mg42, Pak40, Heal bunker, 444
2370 MP + 130 Fuel + 60 Muni
4 Volks Luchs Rak MG34 + 3 sets of med from Sturms
2115 MP + 120 Fuel + 135 Muni
Ost
4 Grens, Mg42, Pak40, Heal bunker, 444
2370 MP + 130 Fuel + 60 Muni
14 Oct 2019, 18:49 PM
#8
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Is that using the new price of the Captain and Lt? Also, shouldn't you add in the cost of grenades and possibly weapon racks for USF also?
The Captain and LT still seem too cheap in terms of manpower and too expensive in terms of fuel. I haven't played 1v1's in years so maybe there is a reason for the prices being the way they are.
Cons seem overpriced, especially when cons have to buy both types of grenades and pay a muni cost for each squad to go to 7 models. The Maxim would need a buff to its arc and suppression to be worth 260. That said, I'm not sure how they could change these without making the T70 arrive earlier.
Yes both CPT and LT are used with new prices. Grenades and weapon racks aren't included for UKF and USF because it would make the comparison of 4 Cons and 4 Rifles/Sections even more unrealistic.
14 Oct 2019, 19:01 PM
#9
Posts: 320
Thanks for going through the effort and providing these values. Asymmetrical balance and different timings make it difficult to draw any conclusions from this though. I think the biggest problem of cons is the extra cost of the side upgrades like AT and molly. They were already brought down in the near past, which I think was a good move. There are also weapon/grenade unlock costs for Brits and USF, but we're not listing teching done later and med tank timings here either.
14 Oct 2019, 20:08 PM
#10
Posts: 17883 | Subs: 8
I think soviet tech structures just cost an absurd amount of manpower
Not tech, medics. Only USF is comparable here and they get more bang out of their buck due to AoE healing.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
14 Oct 2019, 20:20 PM
#11
Posts: 4474
while i do agree in a mp reduction in any way for soviet that does not buff penal (free cons squad start of the game, Molotov free after tier 1 or 2 and tier 3 cost 10 more fuel,etc)
it's a bit unfair to show it like this as soviet need only 90 fuel then to tech for tanks, while all the other faction pay 120 + fuel
it's a bit unfair to show it like this as soviet need only 90 fuel then to tech for tanks, while all the other faction pay 120 + fuel
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
14 Oct 2019, 20:28 PM
#12
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
At least as Soviets you can use the commisar for AoE healing.
I’m actually quite mad they gave the 251 and Opel Blitz free healing for garrisoned troops, but not to the Soviet M5.
I’m actually quite mad they gave the 251 and Opel Blitz free healing for garrisoned troops, but not to the Soviet M5.
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14 Oct 2019, 21:06 PM
#13
Posts: 1979
while i do agree in a mp reduction in any way for soviet that does not buff penal (free cons squad start of the game, Molotov free after tier 1 or 2 and tier 3 cost 10 more fuel,etc)
it's a bit unfair to show it like this as soviet need only 90 fuel then to tech for tanks, while all the other faction pay 120 + fuel
Its 85 (t3) + 15 (t2) + 15 (at nade) + 10 (molly) = 125 if you go through the T2 route...
Okw takes much less fuel than that to get mechanized BGHQ AND gets free snares and incendiary with tech.... Not to mention the MP cost involving mollys and at nades
This is also on top of having worse line infantry aswell...
When compared to ost well the T70 comes earlier than the P4... but it actually takes around the same amount of fuel to get a T-34-76 and a panzer 4... which is completely ridiculous
Likewise LMG grens come significantly earlier than 7 man cons... which is another ridiculous handicap
14 Oct 2019, 21:25 PM
#14
Posts: 5279
The biggest issue with the Soviet is you have SUCH a slow start. 160mp to start building units is nuts when your alternatives are a pair of the absolute least effecient units in the game as far as fighting goes (and in the case of CE also utility) Ost pays 80mp for their t1 and the same price for their mgs and core infantry AND have a versatile engineer squad that can scout, set up defenses AND fight in a supportive role (they are not shock troops, but if they get beside any Soviet core unit you will feel it)
You literally pay more and get less for the Soviet early game and you can feel it.
You literally pay more and get less for the Soviet early game and you can feel it.
#stalinwept
14 Oct 2019, 21:25 PM
#15
Posts: 4474
Its 85 (t3) + 15 (t2) + 15 (at nade) + 10 (molly) = 125 if you go through the T2 route...
Okw takes much less fuel than that to get mechanized BGHQ AND gets free snares and incendiary with tech.... Not to mention the MP cost involving mollys and at nades
This is also on top of having worse line infantry aswell...
When compared to ost well the T70 comes earlier than the P4... but it actually takes around the same amount of fuel to get a T-34-76 and a panzer 4... which is completely ridiculous
Likewise LMG grens come significantly earlier than 7 man cons... which is another ridiculous handicap
likewise the p3 comes much earlier than the t 34.... wait a minute
btw no it's not free snare, okw pays around 275 fuel for all of its upgrades, su pays around 240fu , u can turn around that argument simply saying to get to tanks with medic and LT like soviet u pay much more fu
Significantly ? tier 1 +3 + side tech or wait for tier 4 vs battle phase 2, the 7th man is much better than lmg in the current state, if u divide it then u can play around with it
btw i love u somehow turned this around either tier 2 or maxim and vs okw and osther when we were all talking about su ukf and usf, maybe stop deraling hard ?
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
14 Oct 2019, 21:26 PM
#16
Posts: 17883 | Subs: 8
The biggest issue with the Soviet is you have SUCH a slow start. 160mp to start building units is nuts when your alternatives are a pair of the absolute least effecient units in the game as far as fighting goes (and in the case of CE also utility) Ost pays 80mp for their t1 and the same price for their mgs and core infantry AND have a versatile engineer squad that can scout, set up defenses AND fight in a supportive role (they are not shock troops, but if they get beside any Soviet core unit you will feel it)
You literally pay more and get less for the Soviet early game and you can feel it.
You forgot that ost has bonus MP at start as well.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
14 Oct 2019, 21:55 PM
#17
Posts: 1979
likewise the p3 comes much earlier than the t 34.... wait a minute
The T70 coming earlier than the P4 is sensible......
The T-34-76 coming out the same time as the P4 is NOT
btw no it's not free snare, okw pays around 275 fuel for all of its upgrades, su pays around 240fu , u can turn around that argument simply saying to get to tanks with medic and LT like soviet u pay much more fu
Significantly ? tier 1 +3 + side tech or wait for tier 4 vs battle phase 2, the 7th man is much better than lmg in the current state, if u divide it then u can play around with it
What? T4 + T2 + 2 trucks = 190 fuel... are u adding T1 to the mix? sov meanwhile has to get T2 + T3 + T4 + molly + at nade = 215 fuel... of course without the AT nade its 190 fuel...
which again proves the point that OKW gets free shit while sov has to pay for it with retarded sidetechs
Ohh the lmg comes out at bp1 btw not bp2... which is CHEAPER by a longshot...
btw i love u somehow turned this around either tier 2 or maxim and vs okw and osther when we were all talking about su ukf and usf, maybe stop deraling hard ?
T2 SU has always been the worst of the bunch... it is literally the weakest form of play in game bar none...
14 Oct 2019, 22:06 PM
#18
Posts: 4474
my point was the lack of LT for ost and that's why it come at the smae time
yes i was counting tier 1 too, if u want to get medics and mortar like SU tier 2 +3
u keep derailing with no reason, okw and ost where non factor but u can't keep ur hate boner for ost and okw in check
how about u give a constructive solution for once ?
yes i was counting tier 1 too, if u want to get medics and mortar like SU tier 2 +3
u keep derailing with no reason, okw and ost where non factor but u can't keep ur hate boner for ost and okw in check
how about u give a constructive solution for once ?
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
14 Oct 2019, 22:24 PM
#19
Posts: 1979
my point was the lack of LT for ost and that's why it come at the smae time
Maybe that would be fine if T2 sov had better infantry... but without the PPSH conscripts are hard pressed even against LMG grens till 7 man arrives...
yes i was counting tier 1 too, if u want to get medics and mortar like SU tier 2 +3
Okw gets heals without medics...
It it may lack a mortar... and a reinforcing halftrack... but gets better infantry machineguns rocket artillery mediums and gets an extra premium medium...
It makes no sense why the former is more expensive
u keep derailing with no reason, okw and ost where non factor but u can't keep ur hate boner for ost and okw in check
how about u give a constructive solution for once ?
Im here suggesting T2 buffs to put it on par with ost.... nothing disruptive or derailing about that.... i also enjoy playing ost...
Although ill admit i have hatred for both USF and OKW... WFA factions get free shit that EFA factions have to pay for....
I also despise sov T1 for being ridiculously blobby and cheesy...
14 Oct 2019, 23:19 PM
#20
Posts: 818
while i do agree in a mp reduction in any way for soviet that does not buff penal
In 1v1 Everybody seems to be giving up on penals myself included
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