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russian armor

Main gun crits should be removed?

13 Oct 2019, 11:27 AM
#21
avatar of StillANoob

Posts: 24

Low chance rng crits create dynamic gameplay that is exciting to play with, against and to watch.
13 Oct 2019, 13:52 PM
#22
avatar of Smiling Tiger

Posts: 207

I might be ok with main gun destroyed crits and maybe even vehicle abandoned crits if COH2 was more like COH1 where vehicles were cheaper on average and you usually wouldn't throw the whole game based on one unlucky tank engagement.

As it stands right now with how long it takes to save up for even a standard medium tank main gun crits and especially vehicle abandoned crits have no place in COH2. The game has plenty of other RNG both in tank engagements and in other areas so saying it makes the game to predictable is wrong, you still have RNG with penetration, scatter, and missing vs hitting.
13 Oct 2019, 14:27 PM
#23
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1



IIRC any damage than makes a vehicle go to 25% or lower can proc a main gun destroy.

This means that on any medium tank, after getting hit twice by most tanks/AT guns, you can suddenly get the crit to affect you by any following shot.

Reduce the threshold lower than 25% and it's suddenly FAIR to get crit by being really on low health and not just roaming around with a tank at half health.


Yeah this is the issue right here. Lower the health threshold and it would be fine

RNG is one of many things that makes coh great. That doesn't mean the current mechanic is good for the game

Remember when abandons didn't cause heavy engine damage? Was super easy to recrew and repair them, and that was dumb
14 Oct 2019, 02:21 AM
#24
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789



I get that, but why should your opponet be on full retreat, then hits you and gets a main gun crit and all the sudden you're in full retreat and they're on full offense. Why should 1 RNG roll orchestrate a full 180 in momentum?


It’s not just the in fight rng, it’s that he can then Half repair his tank and then dive your half health tank with main gun crit and you lose

Even if the main gun crit isn’t removed make it repair at 50% hp
14 Oct 2019, 02:52 AM
#25
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

RNG in this game was implement for 2 reasons.

To add diversity and unpredictability in units engaging combat.

To make it unfair and hard, and that's good. Easy games are not as fun, less frustrating maybegames also not as exciting as skill and attention demanding games

Player skill is proven by uneven odds, even when that crush such players into losing. You can always start a new game with all the experience you gathered along your playtime.

Even the most fair games around receive lots of complaints from skilled and unskilled players, because of that there is no real end of game patches.
14 Oct 2019, 04:58 AM
#26
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739



Yeah this is the issue right here. Lower the health threshold and it would be fine

RNG is one of many things that makes coh great. That doesn't mean the current mechanic is good for the game

Remember when abandons didn't cause heavy engine damage? Was super easy to recrew and repair them, and that was dumb


I remember and i liked that better. Adds more variety to combat. If you can pick up enemy mg and mortars and guns, why make abandoned vehicles so punishing?

Btw does using abandoned vehicle have the pop values of the original?

And i voted no to topic at hand. Rng is coh. Stop trying to make the game like SC or RA or Modern combat, yawn

The current coh2 already have increasingly high apm needs to excel. No need to make things even more dead boring mechanical
14 Oct 2019, 05:49 AM
#27
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2019, 04:58 AMmrgame2


I remember and i liked that better. Adds more variety to combat. If you can pick up enemy mg and mortars and guns, why make abandoned vehicles so punishing?


Because the mechanic of de-crewing team weapons and de-crewing a tank isnt even remotely similar

Killing support weapon crews is rarely about luck, and almost always do to a well timed advance or flank

De-crewing a tank is 1000% random. You cannot compare stealing tanks to stealing support weapons, that should be pretty clear. Unless of course you're talking about stealing a tank from a USF player cuz you caught the crew with their pants down. That's a lot more comparable to stealing weapons
14 Oct 2019, 06:34 AM
#28
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

I think you decrew a tank after "killing" it.
I dont think we need such heavy damage repairs to steal it, that's all i sayin
14 Oct 2019, 06:38 AM
#29
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2019, 06:34 AMmrgame2
I think you decrew a tank after "killing" it.
I dont think we need such heavy damage repairs to steal it, that's all i sayin

IIRC When you damage a tank mor than its HP pool it gets destroyed everytime, but if you damage it to 90% there is a slight chance to trigger the "decrew" crit
14 Oct 2019, 06:41 AM
#30
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

That's fine too
Maybe make it 95% but reduce the heavy damage status.
It is more fun when decrew happens. Changes the equation as coh is about
14 Oct 2019, 10:48 AM
#31
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



It’s not just the in fight rng, it’s that he can then Half repair his tank and then dive your half health tank with main gun crit and you lose

Even if the main gun crit isn’t removed make it repair at 50% hp


good point
14 Oct 2019, 11:31 AM
#32
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

Theres already enough rng with penetration rolls, accuracy, and scatter. Those should keep things interesting enough without the need to punish a player so heavily through one instance of sheer luck.
Most forms of RNG can be controlled to some extent or other, stopping your vehicle to fire to maximize accuracy, moving infantry closer to reach an optimum engagement range, advancing with a tank to improve penetration.
Even mines which rely on the enemy walking over a specific spot have an aspect of user input as you had to make an educated guess about where the enemy would walk.
Main gun crit, and crew abandon on vehicles is not the type of rng that can be truly influenced, neither by the defender player nor the attacker.

I do not think that winning a game because your enemy donated you his first medium through no choice of his counts as using skill to overcome RNG. That's RNG handing you victory despite potentially having worse skill.


Anyone who thinks this change would make the game too much like starcraft has clearly not played starcraft.
14 Oct 2019, 11:36 AM
#33
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2019, 11:31 AMSerrith


++

You've worded it very well.
14 Oct 2019, 12:13 PM
#34
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

Anyone who thinks main gun crits or abandons are fun has never lost a high tier match due to it.i think Serrith’s post sums it perfectly.
14 Oct 2019, 12:19 PM
#35
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2759 | Subs: 4

My vote is no, but i wouldn't mind reducing the threshold of trigger to lower than 10-15%.


Yeah either that or remove the maingun crits from light vehicles.

Units like AEC or Puma have almost guaranteed maingun crit every time if they fight vs high RoF units like 222, Luchs, flak HT, centaur etc... sometimes even vs HMGs
14 Oct 2019, 12:37 PM
#36
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

I'd actually like to see these kind of crits on team weapons aswell..
14 Oct 2019, 13:32 PM
#37
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

I'd actually like to see these kind of crits on team weapons aswell..

That makes no sense... you're not shooting at weapon, but the crew.
14 Oct 2019, 14:06 PM
#38
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


IIRC When you damage a tank mor than its HP pool it gets destroyed everytime, but if you damage it to 90% there is a slight chance to trigger the "decrew" crit


Please, let's not spread BS. When a tank get's to 0HP, it procs a death crit. The abandon mechanic is just a different crit with a low amount of chance to proc. For the early stages of the CoH life, there used to be other crits which cause the so called "5%" crit.

Before you were able to kill a tank you could get main gun destroy > engine damage > heavy engine damage > death tank.




While it's focus is something else, i think it's more bearable than having to watch this.




14 Oct 2019, 14:08 PM
#39
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

You absolutely get crits on weapon teams. If you are lucky you get the "immobilize" crit on the maxim and are able to wipe it
14 Oct 2019, 14:31 PM
#40
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

For those who like the mechanic as is, do you think this 2 situations are fine?

Ex: this is how flamethrowers used to be.



Ex: Abandon mechanic.
You found a group of 3 Katyushas on the back line, you use Stuka dive bomb on them. They all "survive" because they get abandoned.
Alternative, you fire a B4 shot into a blob of PW/Stuka. They survive because abandon just outside the door of their base.


The main gun crit as a mechanic is fine. Implementation is bad. Don't reward/punish players randomly. Have there be some logic/input behind it.

In the case of my suggestion for main gun crit, the logic is the following.
There's no decision about a fight between 2 medium tanks brawling at each other from full health on whether the crit my proc or not.
THERE IS DECISION if you decide to start the fight without finishing repairs on a vehicle (so you don't have an even HP number).

The beauty about changing the threshold to even 20%, is that even a deflecting snare (45dmg) would be able to set the stage for that to happen.
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