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russian armor

M20 over nerf rofl

11 Oct 2019, 22:24 PM
#81
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766

The bazooka was bad. If the m20 was going to get nerfed Im glad it was the bazooka that got dropped. Still think unit build time nerf is overkill though.
11 Oct 2019, 22:49 PM
#82
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1110

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 18:29 PMEsxile


That's hardly an argument, 222 got its price cut in half, upgrade made free and stat boosted as well vs infantry and vehicle. (NB I'm not complaining about the 222 just taking example).

Crew Bazooka was a balanced option for the M20 to be able to defend itself at cost of potentially losing the car or the crew or both. If the M20 was so powerful vs infantry its stat could have been reduce or its price increase or build time increase depending on what aspect of the unit was problematic.

I'm sorry but I have yet to see a m20 surviving two 222 and is usually most likely going to die if overextending even vs 1 222.


Bazooka crew would be ok if they left the crippled vehicle with almost no health and 2 models after the vehicle took some beating. The cheese begins when the crew is full health and with a free bazooka. Squads (that you pay for with upgrades that you pay for - pzgrens 300something manpower plus 100 muni upgrade) leave a damaged halftrack half health! Your free crew with a free bazooka left full health and was able to destroy 222. Can't you see how unbalanced that is? Not only that - they could crit repair etc. Just cheese. 222 was a total mess a few years ago. Now it is still inferior as it can be damaged by small arms and can't repair itself so its field presence is much reduced.
11 Oct 2019, 23:17 PM
#83
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766

Both vehicles can be damaged by small arms, even after the armor addon for the M20 (which is primarily a health bonus iirc). Armor value has to be over 35 to ignore most small arms. Overall the M20 is more resilient with or without the upgrade, thanks to crew and smoke, but it is also less effective versus infantry than a 222 and basically helpless versus other light vehicles. IIRC even the 221 will outdps the M20, though the latter unit scales better with veterancy.

Primary AT/Anti Light Vehicle capability of the M20 is always going to be the mines, which are as dicy a proposition as any expensive mine in this game considering a detector squad can erase that investment without any impact.

Anyway, bazooka nerf is fine. LT gets a zook now so no big deal.


Also, the vet 3 penetration boost for the M20 is absolute garbage so I don't want anyone bringing that up. At most it adds something like 1.5 penetration at minimum range, bringing it to a whopping maximum total of 4.5 and a minimum of 1.5 at long range. If it were my call I would have made it a flat +2 or +3 penetration bonus, which raises the penetration stats up to normal vehicle M2HB levels.
12 Oct 2019, 07:44 AM
#84
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8539 | Subs: 1

Both vehicles can be damaged by small arms, even after the armor addon for the M20 (which is primarily a health bonus iirc). Armor value has to be over 35 to ignore most small arms. Overall the M20 is more resilient with or without the upgrade, thanks to crew and smoke, but it is also less effective versus infantry than a 222 and basically helpless versus other light vehicles. IIRC even the 221 will outdps the M20, though the latter unit scales better with veterancy.

Primary AT/Anti Light Vehicle capability of the M20 is always going to be the mines, which are as dicy a proposition as any expensive mine in this game considering a detector squad can erase that investment without any impact.

Anyway, bazooka nerf is fine. LT gets a zook now so no big deal.


Also, the vet 3 penetration boost for the M20 is absolute garbage so I don't want anyone bringing that up. At most it adds something like 1.5 penetration at minimum range, bringing it to a whopping maximum total of 4.5 and a minimum of 1.5 at long range. If it were my call I would have made it a flat +2 or +3 penetration bonus, which raises the penetration stats up to normal vehicle M2HB levels.

Armor skirt is hardly "primarily a health bonus". It increase the EHP vs small arms of the unit dramatilly.
As for the chance to be penetrate by small arm fire once upgraded, yes it can be penetrated but the chance is rather low thus grealty decreasing repair times.

"helpless vs other light vehicles" is rather misleading since it can beat the kubel and 221/223 which are the other "light vehicles", unless you want to talk about light tanks.

As for vet bonuses it gets an accuracy buff at each vet level so there is problem there.

The unit is extremly cost efficient and can survive and be useful even at late game.
12 Oct 2019, 09:58 AM
#85
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2426 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 19:25 PMEsxile
That's the point, if you want to secure a kill on a m20, build two 222.


You've lost me. Why should a 20 fuel light AI vehicle be able to survive two of its counters that cost three times the fuel? That's like saying the Ostwind is bad because it loses to three T-34-76s.

If the enemy invests 60 fuel into light AT vehicles, they better damn well be able to secure a kill on a 20 fuel vehicle. That's the point of the investment.
13 Oct 2019, 09:38 AM
#86
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 1



You've lost me. Why should a 20 fuel light AI vehicle be able to survive two of its counters that cost three times the fuel? That's like saying the Ostwind is bad because it loses to three T-34-76s.

If the enemy invests 60 fuel into light AT vehicles, they better damn well be able to secure a kill on a 20 fuel vehicle. That's the point of the investment.


You've lost yourself in your own mind, I'm not part of it.

The explanation given for removing the zook was its too hard to counter. To which I say building two 222 will always secure the kill even with the bazooka.

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