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russian armor

M20 over nerf rofl

10 Oct 2019, 07:04 AM
#61
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2848 | Subs: 1

Sometime I wonder if people are discovering the game just now or what. M20 has this timing since a year or so and only now you're bitching about.
The problem is not the m20 but riflemen. Tomorrow people will discover that Stuart and AAHT are also too strong and they will be nerfed until finally RM get nerfed as well and the faction going back into crappiness.
10 Oct 2019, 09:48 AM
#62
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1211

Dear Santa,
I'd like my 222 little panzer to get:

1. an armour upograde on 222 (I'll pay with my munitions pocket money myself - so it doesn't count);
2. smoke without a doctrine;
3. a possibility to lay a mine (but not too expensive, please - because after I buy armour upgrade I'll be a bit muni broke for mines and lmgs for my elves);
4. a better engine to drive faster (I promise to be careful).
5. I'd like it to cap territory.
6. I'd like it to have better sight - some non doctrine spotting scopes.
7. I'd like it to crit repair because friends from the playground have it on their little tanks and on bigger ones, too.
8. I'd like it to face only elite infantry with zooks because when those cheap squads get them they come too soon and there's too many of them.
9. I'd like it to have a crew with no extra cost because I'm poor.
10. And btw - if you take away the infatry awareness ability I'll cry.

I've been a good boy so please can you make that happen (friends from school keep laughing at my little tank so please help)

H&K
XXX
10 Oct 2019, 12:32 PM
#63
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1156

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Oct 2019, 12:47 PMVipper

M20 is cost efficient unit with or without the bazooka.

Micro light vehicle game in general sucks. M3 flamer cars, WC51 and m20 can completely mess up a game and get wipes on retreat. In return the 222 obliterates these vehicles.

Micro light vehicles could see an overhaul by increasing their window of opportunity lowering their impact, reintroducing the 221 as a soft counter to them (delaying and redesigning the 222), lowering their pop with veterancy or tech...

But I seriously doubt that since the MOD seem to (instead of increasing the window of opportunity of early unit) allowing increasing more powerful units earlier in the game.


I disagree on one thing

222 does not obliterate m20.

M20 is too fast for 222 and 222 cannon.

This nerf make sense especially after rifles early buff
10 Oct 2019, 12:50 PM
#64
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2028

Dear Santa,
I'd like my 222 little panzer to get:

1. an armour upograde on 222 (I'll pay with my munitions pocket money myself - so it doesn't count);
2. smoke without a doctrine;
3. a possibility to lay a mine (but not too expensive, please - because after I buy armour upgrade I'll be a bit muni broke for mines and lmgs for my elves);
4. a better engine to drive faster (I promise to be careful).
5. I'd like it to cap territory.
6. I'd like it to have better sight - some non doctrine spotting scopes.
7. I'd like it to crit repair because friends from the playground have it on their little tanks and on bigger ones, too.
8. I'd like it to face only elite infantry with zooks because when those cheap squads get them they come too soon and there's too many of them.
9. I'd like it to have a crew with no extra cost because I'm poor.
10. And btw - if you take away the infatry awareness ability I'll cry.

I've been a good boy so please can you make that happen (friends from school keep laughing at my little tank so please help)

H&K
XXX



reportet for rapping the unbelievable BS you want for one car. oh wait...
10 Oct 2019, 13:28 PM
#65
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1156

Anyway i don't see as over nerf. Losing the zooks make sense to prevent early ai and at all in one. Otherwise it just come in later at the same performance characteristics.
10 Oct 2019, 14:46 PM
#66
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2446 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 07:04 AMEsxile
Sometime I wonder if people are discovering the game just now or what. M20 has this timing since a year or so and only now you're bitching about.
The problem is not the m20 but riflemen.


All factions are delicate ecosystems. Continuously, parts of that system change causing ripple effects across the rest of it. A unit can be fine for years, and become a problem after something else changes (see Infantry Sections, after giving Royal Engineers a snare).

As for the recent Riflemen change being the core of the problem and not the M20, whether that's true or not, we're talking about a simple consideration: do we nerf Rifles again and 1) likely cause widespread outrage and 2) affect the entire USF playerbase, or do we nerf the M20 and affect only the high level 1v1 playerbase where the unit is used and causes problems?
10 Oct 2019, 18:05 PM
#67
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2848 | Subs: 1



All factions are delicate ecosystems. Continuously, parts of that system change causing ripple effects across the rest of it. A unit can be fine for years, and become a problem after something else changes (see Infantry Sections, after giving Royal Engineers a snare).

As for the recent Riflemen change being the core of the problem and not the M20, whether that's true or not, we're talking about a simple consideration: do we nerf Rifles again and 1) likely cause widespread outrage and 2) affect the entire USF playerbase, or do we nerf the M20 and affect only the high level 1v1 playerbase where the unit is used and causes problems?


You're affecting everyone using the m20, not only high level player and I'll tend to say that you're affecting much more medium level players that needed this zook to play the unit than top's one who are not even upgrade skirt thanks to their better skill and game awareness.
You made the riflesquad change you can also be the one removing it because nerfing every single other unit in order to keep the balance with riflesquad isn't going to be much more popular. The problem lies with riflesquad not the m20 and soon you'll probably be going to nerf the stuart, AAHT, M8 and .50 because of that.
10 Oct 2019, 18:16 PM
#68
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2869



All factions are delicate ecosystems. Continuously, parts of that system change causing ripple effects across the rest of it. A unit can be fine for years, and become a problem after something else changes (see Infantry Sections, after giving Royal Engineers a snare).

As for the recent Riflemen change being the core of the problem and not the M20, whether that's true or not, we're talking about a simple consideration: do we nerf Rifles again and 1) likely cause widespread outrage and 2) affect the entire USF playerbase, or do we nerf the M20 and affect only the high level 1v1 playerbase where the unit is used and causes problems?


The main issue is you’ve overnerfed the faction with the build time increases. I think the 50 cal build time nerf needs to be reverted.
10 Oct 2019, 18:54 PM
#69
avatar of synThrax
Donator 11

Posts: 137

Meh, damn that balance! The zook on the m20 was so unique. i'm going to miss it now. >:(
10 Oct 2019, 19:09 PM
#70
avatar of Anon66

Posts: 15

Man, any balance threads regarding USF seem to go nowhere. USF players are trying to stack up to OKW and axis mains want USF to stay in line with Wher.
USF is worried about the luchs+puma combo and Axis is worried about their 222 performance, I have no idea how the balance team can even work with that.
10 Oct 2019, 19:36 PM
#71
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2446 | Subs: 5

The main issue is you’ve overnerfed the faction with the build time increases. I think the 50 cal build time nerf needs to be reverted.

The first M2HB now deploys 5 seconds faster? The second one deploys 5 seconds slower.
You're really calling that an overnerf?


jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 18:05 PMEsxile
you're affecting much more medium level players that needed this zook to play the unit

Why? Can these players not find the bazooka upgrade key on the Lieutenant? Or any of the other light AT sources the USF has? The M20 didn't need the bazooka on any level.
10 Oct 2019, 21:15 PM
#72
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2848 | Subs: 1



Why? Can these players not find the bazooka upgrade key on the Lieutenant? Or any of the other light AT sources the USF has? The M20 didn't need the bazooka on any level.


Wondering why it has it since ever...
10 Oct 2019, 21:19 PM
#73
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 21:15 PMEsxile


Wondering why it has it since ever...
great logic , any reason why the removed shreck form volks, mg34 + obers base, etc,etc

i mean it they had it since ever .....
10 Oct 2019, 22:37 PM
#74
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7286 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 21:15 PMEsxile


Wondering why it has it since ever...


If you want a real answer:

-It was much more expensive.
-It took longer to build
-It had higher popcap.
-Less utility and less scaling through vet while taking way longer to vet as well.
-Mines took ages to plant.
-Most of the time, picking an officer meant that you were locked down for several minutes and resources from getting any real AT, as the tier got an MG without AP rounds and the AA HT. The LT had a bar, not a zook.
11 Oct 2019, 06:53 AM
#75
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2848 | Subs: 1



If you want a real answer:

-It was much more expensive.
-It took longer to build
-It had higher popcap.
-Less utility and less scaling through vet while taking way longer to vet as well.
-Mines took ages to plant.
-Most of the time, picking an officer meant that you were locked down for several minutes and resources from getting any real AT, as the tier got an MG without AP rounds and the AA HT. The LT had a bar, not a zook.


And none of those are related to the crew zook. Making it more expensive, longer to build, increasing popcap, increasing vet requirement, increase mine deployment time... are.
11 Oct 2019, 16:09 PM
#76
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2446 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 21:15 PMEsxile
Wondering why it has it since ever...


That's not an argument at all. If something has been there for 10 years but is causing problems now, that's no reason to leave it. Not that it matters anyway, because the big Dec 2018 changes to tech have completely changed the situation anyway.


As for why it had the bazooka before, and why it doesn't need it now, that's mostly because USF tech was incredibly stiff, and the M20 was in the Lieutenant (who had a BAR) tier with the M2HB and M15 AAHT. There was no AT except for M2HB AP ammo or bazookas with weapon racks.

Now the Stuart is in the LT tier, and the LT gets the bazooka upgrade, so there is no more reason for the M20 crew to need a bazooka. On top of that it used to have a manpower premium for the bazooka, which was already changed with a hefty cost reduction (from 340MP to 240MP), so getting both the M20 and the bazooka for only 240MP was simply too cost effective when taking into account the rest of USF's (new) early game snowballing and cost effective economy.
11 Oct 2019, 16:15 PM
#77
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817

I think its as simple as this 340 MP unit getting a free bazooka is fine, a decrease to 240 mp while still getting a bazooka is too much. That's the cost of being cheaper.
11 Oct 2019, 18:29 PM
#78
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2848 | Subs: 1



That's not an argument at all. If something has been there for 10 years but is causing problems now, that's no reason to leave it. Not that it matters anyway, because the big Dec 2018 changes to tech have completely changed the situation anyway.


As for why it had the bazooka before, and why it doesn't need it now, that's mostly because USF tech was incredibly stiff, and the M20 was in the Lieutenant (who had a BAR) tier with the M2HB and M15 AAHT. There was no AT except for M2HB AP ammo or bazookas with weapon racks.

Now the Stuart is in the LT tier, and the LT gets the bazooka upgrade, so there is no more reason for the M20 crew to need a bazooka. On top of that it used to have a manpower premium for the bazooka, which was already changed with a hefty cost reduction (from 340MP to 240MP), so getting both the M20 and the bazooka for only 240MP was simply too cost effective when taking into account the rest of USF's (new) early game snowballing and cost effective economy.


That's hardly an argument, 222 got its price cut in half, upgrade made free and stat boosted as well vs infantry and vehicle. (NB I'm not complaining about the 222 just taking example).

Crew Bazooka was a balanced option for the M20 to be able to defend itself at cost of potentially losing the car or the crew or both. If the M20 was so powerful vs infantry its stat could have been reduce or its price increase or build time increase depending on what aspect of the unit was problematic.

I'm sorry but I have yet to see a m20 surviving two 222 and is usually most likely going to die if overextending even vs 1 222.
11 Oct 2019, 19:10 PM
#79
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2446 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 18:29 PMEsxile
I'm sorry but I have yet to see a m20 surviving two 222


Why should it be able to survive two units that in total are worth tripple the fuel cost? Not that it even could before? Why should it even be able to survive overextending against a single 222 (its hardcounter)?

It has 45 range, 50 sight range. There's never a need to overextend except when being greedy, which is always a risk, with any unit.
11 Oct 2019, 19:25 PM
#80
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2848 | Subs: 1



Why should it be able to survive two units that in total are worth tripple the fuel cost? Not that it even could before? Why should it even be able to survive overextending against a single 222 (its hardcounter)?

It has 45 range, 50 sight range. There's never a need to overextend except when being greedy, which is always a risk, with any unit.


That's the point, if you want to secure a kill on a m20, build two 222.
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