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russian armor

M20 over nerf rofl

9 Oct 2019, 11:46 AM
#41
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1363 | Subs: 3

Giving M20 crew a zook with armor doctrine would be cool to see, considering mechanized, cavalry and recon support have taken the spotlight recently.
9 Oct 2019, 12:13 PM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8711 | Subs: 1

Giving M20 crew a zook with armor doctrine would be cool to see, considering mechanized, cavalry and recon support have taken the spotlight recently.

Even better nerfing the abilities of these commander would better so of the abilities are simply op...
9 Oct 2019, 12:30 PM
#43
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2845 | Subs: 1



Have you been on COH2 forums at all from 2017 to 2019? Almost everyone was asking for early game buffs to riflemen.

I suggested early game buffs + vet nerfs, for what it's worth. Now that Rifles can easily hold their own vs Sturms and Volks are significantly delayed it's not so common to get Sturm-ed into Volks-sandbags on your cutoff.

This in turn changes/balances the OKW-US matchup. I've always said the problem with USF was with early game, and now that USF early game is decent everyone realises that many of the other units are incredibly strong and oppressively hard to counter.

In the past: M20 didn't get a chance to shine because you were getting your cutoff sandbagged while kubel was capping the map for a 6 mins Luchs.

Now: You're not getting cutoff and sandbagged, 2 rifle into LT with 50 cal comes really early on most maps, and the m20 + 50 cal will let you cutoff and bleed the OKW player easily, delaying his Luchs significantly and giving you plenty of time to prepare zooks or Stuart.


Yeah you're not completely wrong, I myself suggested to move some of RM vet3 RA to Vet1 or/and some minor nerf to OKW early game like minus manpower start and sandbag behind vet1. But I guess a plain buff to RM was the way to go along side with OKW early game nerf. What could have gone wrong with this logic!

And that's what I'm pointing out, the inconsistency in the balance team.

Now this M20 nerf isn't about M20 powerspike, and that's why 99% of the poster here are completely wrong. It's about its survivability vs other light vehicles like the M20 was impossible to counter with a 222 or a luch to the point of completely removing its AT defense from the unit. Its not about the .50 or RM or zooks because you had them before as well, you had the lieutenant with zook since more than a year, .50 piercing round are available since long as well.
No its a nerf based on complain about how it is hard and unfair to rush a M20 with a scout car and not be able to seal the deal with 100% chances because the crew can whoop out and defend itself.
We're not here talking about M20 crew that would do 50% damage less with their zook so it is more difficult for the M20 to defend itself, nope here we are from -Can defend itself to -Can't defend itself for no valuable reasons other than the balance team screw up with their riflemen squad buff coming from nowhere on a last minute patch after a top player rant about USF being left alone.
9 Oct 2019, 12:47 PM
#44
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8711 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Oct 2019, 12:30 PMEsxile

...
Now this M20 nerf isn't about M20 powerspike, and that's why 99% of the poster here are completely wrong. It's about its survivability vs other light vehicles like the M20 was impossible to counter with a 222 or a luch to the point of completely removing its AT defense from the unit....

M20 is cost efficient unit with or without the bazooka.

Micro light vehicle game in general sucks. M3 flamer cars, WC51 and m20 can completely mess up a game and get wipes on retreat. In return the 222 obliterates these vehicles.

Micro light vehicles could see an overhaul by increasing their window of opportunity lowering their impact, reintroducing the 221 as a soft counter to them (delaying and redesigning the 222), lowering their pop with veterancy or tech...

But I seriously doubt that since the MOD seem to (instead of increasing the window of opportunity of early unit) allowing increasing more powerful units earlier in the game.
9 Oct 2019, 12:50 PM
#45
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3228

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Oct 2019, 12:30 PMEsxile
We're not here talking about M20 crew that would do 50% damage less with their zook so it is more difficult for the M20 to defend itself, nope here we are from -Can defend itself to -Can't defend itself for no valuable reasons other than the balance team screw up with their riflemen squad buff coming from nowhere on a last minute patch after a top player rant about USF being left alone.


It's a 20 FU scout car. It's a USF 221 with smoke and minelaying.

If you want a Greyhound, get a Greyhound for the price of a Greyhound.

And if you desperately want a Bazooka crew, stick the Lieutenant in the Utility Car.
9 Oct 2019, 14:09 PM
#46
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

Finally. The entire early game USF synergy was way too potent.
9 Oct 2019, 14:22 PM
#47
avatar of Grim

Posts: 890

Give it the skirts at reduced price or as stock.

Lock mines behind major or Cpt.

9 Oct 2019, 15:03 PM
#48
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2446 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Oct 2019, 20:33 PMEsxile
and cannot defend itself vs anything superior to kubel


7.8 speed and 3.5 acceleration (9.4 and 4.6 with veterancy)
50 sight range
vet 0 smoke launcher

It doesn't need to defend itself when it can escape quite easily as long as it doesn't overextend.
There are other units (LT bazooka, Stuart, ATGs, .50cal with AP ammo) to defend against Axis lights.
9 Oct 2019, 15:07 PM
#49
avatar of Sully

Posts: 347 | Subs: 2




Any thoughts on the armor upgrade? I'm of the opinion it should either be stock (with a base unit cost increase), or become a MP + fuel cost upgrade rather than cost 70 munitions.
9 Oct 2019, 15:29 PM
#50
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2446 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Oct 2019, 15:07 PMSully
Any thoughts on the armor upgrade? I'm of the opinion it should either be stock (with a base unit cost increase), or become a MP + fuel cost upgrade rather than cost 70 munitions.


Perhaps another time. For now, the munitions cost is kept to 1) balance out the M6 mines and 2) make sure the Stuart isn't further delayed. Changing the cost to MP/FU was initially considered as an option to slightly delay the Stuart, but ultimately this was dropped in favor of the tech cost and build time adjustments (because the officer techs needed a cost adjustment anyway).
9 Oct 2019, 18:06 PM
#51
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3228

The MU cost is also an important brake on M20 spam.
9 Oct 2019, 18:34 PM
#52
avatar of A table

Posts: 216

Maybe lock it behind weapon rack tech, and them allow them to upgrade it for free once the investment has been done(using the LT timer).
9 Oct 2019, 18:40 PM
#53
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

M20 was coming on the field when literally nothing could counter it and thus, USF gained a huge map control by then, even if enemy managed to rush the 222 or luchs alike, the M20 has a lot of choices to survive, one of it is smoke, previosuly it was also a zook which im glad it was removed, not to mention that stuart can come in like 3 or maybe 4 minutes later? so why bitching about this nerf, let's find out how it works first
9 Oct 2019, 19:09 PM
#54
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7286 | Subs: 1

M20 was coming on the field when literally nothing could counter it and thus, USF gained a huge map control by then, even if enemy managed to rush the 222 or luchs alike, the M20 has a lot of choices to survive, one of it is smoke, previosuly it was also a zook which im glad it was removed, not to mention that stuart can come in like 3 or maybe 4 minutes later? so why bitching about this nerf, let's find out how it works first


Cause complaining in the forum is free. No one will say anything if it ends up been fine and if they were right, they will just said I told you so".

My only concern is how the change was implemented. If this was something which has already been discussed and tested prior to the implementation of the latest big patch, then i guess it's fine. If not, it feels like they are just trying to juggle to find a solution to current USF in ways that might have bigger repercussions than intended. Like the increased cost on officers.
9 Oct 2019, 19:29 PM
#55
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 968 | Subs: 1

M20 is still a solid vehicle.

It still has a decent window of shock value. But now it cant come out so early the other player is fucked.

It has the best at mine in a faction that is lacking in nondoc mines. This alone makes the m20 a good investment if you can get a couple mines down in good places.

Its AI is pretty solid.

Also the m20 has been strong plenty of times in the past. So its silly to say the m20 hasn't been complained about before.
10 Oct 2019, 02:41 AM
#56
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2966



7.8 speed and 3.5 acceleration (9.4 and 4.6 with veterancy)
50 sight range
vet 0 smoke launcher

It doesn't need to defend itself when it can escape quite easily as long as it doesn't overextend.
There are other units (LT bazooka, Stuart, ATGs, .50cal with AP ammo) to defend against Axis lights.

+1
10 Oct 2019, 04:09 AM
#57
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 717

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Oct 2019, 03:48 AMrqd
I think it should have decreased pop or upgrade cost to compensate. Can't just take away things and get nothing in return.


Oh as long as it's an Allied unit we can and do.
10 Oct 2019, 04:13 AM
#58
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 717

M20 is still a solid vehicle.

It still has a decent window of shock value. But now it cant come out so early the other player is fucked.

It has the best at mine in a faction that is lacking in nondoc mines. This alone makes the m20 a good investment if you can get a couple mines down in good places.

Its AI is pretty solid.

Also the m20 has been strong plenty of times in the past. So its silly to say the m20 hasn't been complained about before.


Like M20s were ever really that strong with friggen T0 Raketenwerfers and snares on almost every signle Axis infantry unit.

The M20 nerf, like the Jackson nerf was just placating Axis mains that whine loudly and often enough to be heard. Whatever though I don't even care anymore.
10 Oct 2019, 04:34 AM
#59
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 968 | Subs: 1

A_E
10 Oct 2019, 05:13 AM
#60
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2246 | Subs: 4

M20 was coming on the field when literally nothing could counter it and thus, USF gained a huge map control by then, even if enemy managed to rush the 222 or luchs alike, the M20 has a lot of choices to survive, one of it is smoke, previosuly it was also a zook which im glad it was removed, not to mention that stuart can come in like 3 or maybe 4 minutes later? so why bitching about this nerf, let's find out how it works first


This, whilst I would have preferred the Stuart timing was changed instead I feel the changes warrant time and playtesting before crying.
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