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What's with all the hype about PGs+G43

5 Oct 2019, 12:05 PM
#1
avatar of alk_atraz

Posts: 4

I watched some streams lately and on twitch everyone seems to be going crazy about rushing Tier 2 and get PGs + G43. Mostly along with Jäger Inf + Jäger Command Squad.

The strat is to build 2 Pio and MGs on Tier1, tech and get PGs out.

I have played this strat a little bit but I don't really like it. I miss my grens early game because without them capping is so slow and I don't have a faust. I miss them lategame because they are great with LMGs.
Grens also gain Vet faster and are to a certain extend expandable. And when things go south, PGrens can be wiped just as fast and they are so expensive.

I do like keeping 1-2 PGren Squads around, but as a main infantry I am just not feeling them.

What are your thoughts?

P.S: Why are these strategy forums so dead? :/
5 Oct 2019, 13:11 PM
#2
avatar of AtomicRockets
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 743

The issue with Grenadiers at the moment is that they cannot stand up to allied backbone infantry (except for Conscripts) without the support of an MG42 in the early game. The build order you've highlighted is to quickly cap as much territory as possible, use Pios to spot for your HMG, fast tech, and get PGrens.

Panzergrenadiers are to stand up to allied infantry and practically bully everyone when they hit the field at 4-5min. G43s are a favorable upgrade because it solves PGrens' 2 main weaknesses: long-range engagements and heavy cover vs heavy cover engagements (where the low accuracy of the StG makes their DPS suffer). JLI is a favorable commander because the Jaeger Command Squad has a Panzerfaust to cover up for the fact that PGrens have no vehicle snares.

In the end, builds and playstyles are a matter of personal preference. I love PGrens as I have been doing T2 rushes ever since I started playing WM on the ladder.
5 Oct 2019, 17:03 PM
#3
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 874 | Subs: 1

I'm pretty sure it started when Stuve beat Nicko's USF with it. Nicko got intrigued and started using it himself. Now - because Nicko is using it - the strategy has become all the hype among top players.

There are certain players that already did it in previous patches, like Brosras, Jae4Jett and Aimstrong, but back then G43 Panzergrenadiers weren't nearly as strong.

---

Personally, the strategy wouldn't be my first pick. I've seen it used against the very best players, like DevM and Kimbo and they can punish the slow start hard. You will be fighting with 2 MG42's and 2 Pio's in the first 3,5 minutes against 3 rifles, so one mistake can ruin your setup and make it hard to comeback. Furthermore, if your opponent manages to get in an advantageous position, you can't really force him out with just pio's and mg's, so you might have to give up ground you otherwise could've fought for with T1. In the midgame your infantry will be strengthened by 2 G43 Panzergrenadiers and the Jaeger Command Squad, which are very efficient and strong infantry at all ranges, but they will likely be outnumbered. Lategame you probably have 1-2 more G43 Pgrens, tanks of your choice and the AT strafe, which is quite a solid composition. The only problems are the single snare and lack of Tiger.

I'd recommend one of these similar builds instead if you like playing with strong infantry:

"MG - Gren - Gren - MG" start with either Elite Troops or Lightning War.

By getting second MG instead of third Gren, you give up some early aggressiveness, but will bleed less and have one less squad to upgrade. 2 Grens are still good support for the MG's and will easily beat off any single Allied squad when kept together. This start costs 360 more manpower than T1 skip, but has less weaknesses and might result in more mapcontrol. Afterwards you can do something like "Pgren - 222 - Pgren/Storm - Pak - Pgren/Storm", which you ofcourse upgrade with G43's to get an unbeatable infantry force.

"MG - Gren - Gren - Gren" start with German Infantry.

The aim is to get all Grenadiers upgraded with Veteran Squad Leaders. 5 men Grenadiers are actually equal/better than G43 Panzergrenadiers at mid/long range, altough slightly less efficient per model. They also got buffed this patch. The vet 3 damage reduction makes the squad insanely durable against most explosives and makes the -10% RA you get with the upgrade more effective. You can really do anything you want after this start, the 5 men Grenadiers at 2 CP alone make it worth it. You don't even have to make the 250 if you don't feel like it.
5 Oct 2019, 20:32 PM
#4
avatar of alk_atraz

Posts: 4

Cheers. I do use the build orders you suggested, both of them depending on the map and how I feel about the very first encounters. Sometimes I go MG-Gren-Gren-Mortar if the opponent is using MGs alot.

I play both 1on1 and teamgame, is the PGren strat also viable in team games? In theory your mates could help you out during the slow early game, but alot of 2v2 or 3v3 just turn out to be separated 1v1s, at least in the early.

In team games I also don't really like Jäger Inf or Elite Troops. I mostly use Spearhead or Festung Support there.
5 Oct 2019, 20:47 PM
#5
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1883

The issue with Grenadiers at the moment is that they cannot stand up to allied backbone infantry


They definitely can with the 5-men upgrade
6 Oct 2019, 17:41 PM
#6
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2665

I'm pretty sure it started when Stuve beat Nicko's USF with it. Nicko got intrigued and started using it himself. Now - because Nicko is using it - the strategy has become all the hype among top players.

There are certain players that already did it in previous patches, like Brosras, Jae4Jett and Aimstrong, but back then G43 Panzergrenadiers weren't nearly as strong.

---

Personally, the strategy wouldn't be my first pick. I've seen it used against the very best players, like DevM and Kimbo and they can punish the slow start hard. You will be fighting with 2 MG42's and 2 Pio's in the first 3,5 minutes against 3 rifles, so one mistake can ruin your setup and make it hard to comeback. Furthermore, if your opponent manages to get in an advantageous position, you can't really force him out with just pio's and mg's, so you might have to give up ground you otherwise could've fought for with T1. In the midgame your infantry will be strengthened by 2 G43 Panzergrenadiers and the Jaeger Command Squad, which are very efficient and strong infantry at all ranges, but they will likely be outnumbered. Lategame you probably have 1-2 more G43 Pgrens, tanks of your choice and the AT strafe, which is quite a solid composition. The only problems are the single snare and lack of Tiger.

I'd recommend one of these similar builds instead if you like playing with strong infantry:

"MG - Gren - Gren - MG" start with either Elite Troops or Lightning War.

By getting second MG instead of third Gren, you give up some early aggressiveness, but will bleed less and have one less squad to upgrade. 2 Grens are still good support for the MG's and will easily beat off any single Allied squad when kept together. This start costs 360 more manpower than T1 skip, but has less weaknesses and might result in more mapcontrol. Afterwards you can do something like "Pgren - 222 - Pgren/Storm - Pak - Pgren/Storm", which you ofcourse upgrade with G43's to get an unbeatable infantry force.

"MG - Gren - Gren - Gren" start with German Infantry.

The aim is to get all Grenadiers upgraded with Veteran Squad Leaders. 5 men Grenadiers are actually equal/better than G43 Panzergrenadiers at mid/long range, altough slightly less efficient per model. They also got buffed this patch. The vet 3 damage reduction makes the squad insanely durable against most explosives and makes the -10% RA you get with the upgrade more effective. You can really do anything you want after this start, the 5 men Grenadiers at 2 CP alone make it worth it. You don't even have to make the 250 if you don't feel like it.

Those both sound like fun strategies. I'll have to give them a try. I'm already a big fan of the german infantry doc strat since 5 man grens are great and I love stormtroopers too.

For the elite troops/lightning war one, does the pak come out early enough to counter a stuart or an AEC? Seems pretty close in terms of timing especially if you've been getting some bleed early game (which I guess you shouldn't with double 42s and only 2 grens). I think I played jove once and (got wrecked when) he used an opening like this.
6 Oct 2019, 18:08 PM
#7
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 874 | Subs: 1

For the elite troops/lightning war one, does the pak come out early enough to counter a stuart or an AEC? Seems pretty close in terms of timing especially if you've been getting some bleed early game (which I guess you shouldn't with double 42s and only 2 grens). I think I played jove once and (got wrecked when) he used an opening like this.


The Pak does come out in time against the Stuart, but you might you have to upgrade one of the Panzergrenadiers with Schrecks to defend against all the light vehicle pressure. I prefer having different types of AT, like Schrecks/222/Pak combo, instead of relying on a single type of unit for AT.

Against UKF you might as well skip T2 and focus fully on infantry (or only get a pak40 at most). The AEC is not that good against your infantry and with the nerf to Tommies you don't really have to make a 222 or fht to do damage anymore. I'd recommend 1 PGren into G43 Storms, because UKF tends to do bad against camoed units. The Pgren comes around 1-1,5 CP and can be upgraded with Schrecks later on the line. Do mind you might have to backtech if you suspect a quad halftrack or Valentine.
6 Oct 2019, 18:50 PM
#8
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2665



The Pak does come out in time against the Stuart, but you might you have to upgrade one of the Panzergrenadiers with Schrecks to defend against all the light vehicle pressure. I prefer having different types of AT, like Schrecks/222/Pak combo, instead of relying on a single type of unit for AT.

Against UKF you might as well skip T2 and focus fully on infantry (or only get a pak40 at most). The AEC is not that good against your infantry and with the nerf to Tommies you don't really have to make a 222 or fht to do damage anymore. I'd recommend 1 PGren into G43 Storms, because UKF tends to do bad against camoed units. The Pgren comes around 1-1,5 CP and can be upgraded with Schrecks later on the line. Do mind you might have to backtech if you suspect a quad halftrack or Valentine.

Are g43 storms actually worth using over the mp40s? Because the mp40s are already awesome especially with smoke nades and tactical assault or whatever its called.
6 Oct 2019, 19:48 PM
#9
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 741


Are g43 storms actually worth using over the mp40s? Because the mp40s are already awesome especially with smoke nades and tactical assault or whatever its called.


I got a sniper yesterday using the g43s :romeoHairDay:

You are mostly giving up the static ambush potential with tactical assault to get better all around damage b/c you do much better on the move and mid range

Just get the g43s later if the mp40s aren't working well
7 Oct 2019, 00:58 AM
#10
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 874 | Subs: 1


Are g43 storms actually worth using over the mp40s? Because the mp40s are already awesome especially with smoke nades and tactical assault or whatever its called.


The MP40's are indeed very strong at their 2 CP arrival. It's just that G43 Storms can pick engagements at any range (and probably win) and makes them easier to control if you have multiple squads. You could always keep the G43 upgrade for later and focus on getting Gren LMG's/G43's and Pgren Schrecks first.
7 Oct 2019, 05:46 AM
#11
avatar of AtomicRockets
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 743


They definitely can with the 5-men upgrade


My statement was referring to the situation in the early game.

The issue with Grenadiers at the moment is that they cannot stand up to allied backbone infantry (except for Conscripts) without the support of an MG42 in the early game.
8 Oct 2019, 17:30 PM
#12
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 945 | Subs: 1

snip


Wouldnt 2 grens 3 pgrens bleed pretty bad? Seems like a whole lotta squads especially since Wehr squads have notoriously high reinforcement costs.


Also would if you do go 3 pgrens should one be upgraded with shreks or all 3 with g43s and rely on pak/222 for early at?
10 Oct 2019, 03:40 AM
#13
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 502

The issue with Grenadiers at the moment is that they cannot stand up to allied backbone infantry (except for Conscripts) without the support of an MG42 in the early game. The build order you've highlighted is to quickly cap as much territory as possible, use Pios to spot for your HMG, fast tech, and get PGrens.

Panzergrenadiers are to stand up to allied infantry and practically bully everyone when they hit the field at 4-5min. G43s are a favorable upgrade because it solves PGrens' 2 main weaknesses: long-range engagements and heavy cover vs heavy cover engagements (where the low accuracy of the StG makes their DPS suffer). JLI is a favorable commander because the Jaeger Command Squad has a Panzerfaust to cover up for the fact that PGrens have no vehicle snares.

In the end, builds and playstyles are a matter of personal preference. I love PGrens as I have been doing T2 rushes ever since I started playing WM on the ladder.


From what I've seen Grens actually preform a lot better than most people want to admit. Are you guys forgetting it's only a 240 MP unit?
10 Oct 2019, 04:38 AM
#14
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 312

I'm pretty sure it started when Stuve beat Nicko's USF with it. Nicko got intrigued and started using it himself. Now - because Nicko is using it - the strategy has become all the hype among top players.

There are certain players that already did it in previous patches, like Brosras, Jae4Jett and Aimstrong, but back then G43 Panzergrenadiers weren't nearly as strong.

---

Personally, the strategy wouldn't be my first pick. I've seen it used against the very best players, like DevM and Kimbo and they can punish the slow start hard. You will be fighting with 2 MG42's and 2 Pio's in the first 3,5 minutes against 3 rifles, so one mistake can ruin your setup and make it hard to comeback. Furthermore, if your opponent manages to get in an advantageous position, you can't really force him out with just pio's and mg's, so you might have to give up ground you otherwise could've fought for with T1. In the midgame your infantry will be strengthened by 2 G43 Panzergrenadiers and the Jaeger Command Squad, which are very efficient and strong infantry at all ranges, but they will likely be outnumbered. Lategame you probably have 1-2 more G43 Pgrens, tanks of your choice and the AT strafe, which is quite a solid composition. The only problems are the single snare and lack of Tiger.

I'd recommend one of these similar builds instead if you like playing with strong infantry:

"MG - Gren - Gren - MG" start with either Elite Troops or Lightning War.

By getting second MG instead of third Gren, you give up some early aggressiveness, but will bleed less and have one less squad to upgrade. 2 Grens are still good support for the MG's and will easily beat off any single Allied squad when kept together. This start costs 360 more manpower than T1 skip, but has less weaknesses and might result in more mapcontrol. Afterwards you can do something like "Pgren - 222 - Pgren/Storm - Pak - Pgren/Storm", which you ofcourse upgrade with G43's to get an unbeatable infantry force.

"MG - Gren - Gren - Gren" start with German Infantry.

The aim is to get all Grenadiers upgraded with Veteran Squad Leaders. 5 men Grenadiers are actually equal/better than G43 Panzergrenadiers at mid/long range, altough slightly less efficient per model. They also got buffed this patch. The vet 3 damage reduction makes the squad insanely durable against most explosives and makes the -10% RA you get with the upgrade more effective. You can really do anything you want after this start, the 5 men Grenadiers at 2 CP alone make it worth it. You don't even have to make the 250 if you don't feel like it.


This is simply false

Stuve only started using it after being seal clubbed by Jove et all a few times
10 Oct 2019, 08:47 AM
#15
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 874 | Subs: 1



This is simply false

Stuve only started using it after being seal clubbed by Jove et all a few times


No, I asked Stuve to try it out just after patch release, because I wanted to see the improved G43 Pgrens in action. He did and it turned out to be pretty succesful, so he sticked with it.

11 Oct 2019, 12:31 PM
#16
avatar of Infi.ESA

Posts: 24

I watched some streams lately and on twitch everyone seems to be going crazy about rushing Tier 2 and get PGs + G43. Mostly along with Jäger Inf + Jäger Command Squad.

The strat is to build 2 Pio and MGs on Tier1, tech and get PGs out.

I have played this strat a little bit but I don't really like it. I miss my grens early game because without them capping is so slow and I don't have a faust. I miss them lategame because they are great with LMGs.
Grens also gain Vet faster and are to a certain extend expandable. And when things go south, PGrens can be wiped just as fast and they are so expensive.

I do like keeping 1-2 PGren Squads around, but as a main infantry I am just not feeling them.

What are your thoughts?

P.S: Why are these strategy forums so dead? :/


weak strategy vs SV. when they spam maxims and mortars instead of going inf u are rekt.
11 Oct 2019, 12:41 PM
#17
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 874 | Subs: 1

If Soviets spam maxims and mortars, you've already won as axis.
11 Oct 2019, 14:38 PM
#18
avatar of Infi.ESA

Posts: 24

If Soviets spam maxims and mortars, you've already won as axis.


ah well lets see :

2 (static + 8man) mgs + 2 pios vs 2 (static + 12man) maxims + 1 mortar + 1 pio. hmmm who would win this engagement ?

when u get your pgrens I guess u will face 3-4 maxis and maybe 2 mortars. how u gonna wipe them out if u can't flank ?
SV good boy will push u all the way back to ur base then tech up and finish the game.

OST playing inf spam is the worst thing u can do imo

11 Oct 2019, 17:03 PM
#19
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 874 | Subs: 1



ah well lets see :

2 (static + 8man) mgs + 2 pios vs 2 (static + 12man) maxims + 1 mortar + 1 pio. hmmm who would win this engagement ?

when u get your pgrens I guess u will face 3-4 maxis and maybe 2 mortars. how u gonna wipe them out if u can't flank ?
SV good boy will push u all the way back to ur base then tech up and finish the game.

OST playing inf spam is the worst thing u can do imo



Well first off, no one at the higher ranks spams Maxims, because it's not effective anymore after all the nerfs.

Second, you seem to be of the understanding that 2 Pio's + 2 MG42's would turn into some kind of static slugfest if you make Maxims, where you'd be able to slowly creep up, but it won't. Ostheer would get first Pgren around the 3 minute mark and a 222 around 5 minute mark. Skipping T1 is purely to save some manpower and fuel to get to better units faster. It's actually detrimental to go Maxim spam, because it's quite a slow start compared to just making Conscripts. You'd be unable to make much gains in the crucial first minutes against your opponent's strategy and become very vulnerable once he has an army of elite Panzergrenadiers and 1-2 222's.

If Maxim spam was a valid answer, you'd see top players go for it, but they don't. See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCws4IbSSz0
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