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Vetted 7 man conscripts vs vetted lmg grens..

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3 Oct 2019, 19:59 PM
#101
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

Why can't all mgs have same setup/pickup times and arc traverse speeds?
4 Oct 2019, 02:14 AM
#102
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 677



It's setup time is actually the same as MG42/34/Vickers. Only the pack up time is faster, so already halfway there


I think maxim is slightly faster setup.
But it is absurd it has not tear down counter apart from animations

Anyway i tested the move speeds guess i was wrong. Cons and grens move at same speed or at least not clearly faster. Perhaps the bigger squad size looks as if first model touch the finish line first
4 Oct 2019, 02:18 AM
#103
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 371



I think maxim is slightly faster setup.
But it is absurd it has not tear down counter apart from animations

Anyway i tested the move speeds guess i was wrong. Cons and grens move at same speed or at least not clearly faster. Perhaps the bigger squad size looks as if first model touch the finish line first


What you think doesn mean anything sice stat said they are the same. Please dont bring up balance discussion base on felling.
4 Oct 2019, 03:50 AM
#104
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 324 | Subs: 1



You seem to forget about ptrs penals (non doc), guards, riflemen, UK engineers and sections from som commanders - they all can have 2 AT solutions avaliable on one unit (no axis infantry can do that unless by picking up dropped weapons). It can be really deadly to have a snare and bazookas/ptrs etc on one unit. Additionally, allies are not forced to equip bazookas/piats/ptrs on expensive anty infantry squads - they don't have to sacrifice anty infantry capabilities of expensive units to have hand held ATs. Especially the second ability (giving cheap units hand held ATs) is imo sth that should be addressed and more balanced.


What I was arguing was that Panzerfaust is available on a variety of highly capable units without any sort of squad or tech upgrade even if they are not designed as an AT unit. Every unit you just listed either require squad upgrades or techs to access their snares, and the only units in your list that are also highly capable against infantry while having their snare unlocked are Soviet Guards, who just about happens to have the most expensive and least reliable snare: 40 muni, no damage, requires constant LoS to function, and breaks if the squad moves even a tiny bit.

It's true that PTRS Penals, PTRS Cons, Guards, Riflemen, and Sappers can have both AT weapons and snares. However, that is not my argument. My argument was that Panzerfaust is not objectively worse than Allied counterparts, and part of that reasoning is due to how accessible Panzerfaust is to the Axis on a wide variety of tough infantry units without squad upgrades or sideteching. My point still stands that anything the Panzerfaust has that is "worse" than Allied AT nades is related to unfixable issues with the game engine.
4 Oct 2019, 16:01 PM
#105
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663



What I was arguing was that Panzerfaust is available on a variety of highly capable units without any sort of squad or tech upgrade even if they are not designed as an AT unit.


My point was that for ost panzershrecks are avaliable only on panzergrens and that is bad as allies usually don't want to "waste" their good units for carrying AT weapons as it reduces ther anty infantry potential. They use the cheapest units for that - you can't do that with ost and that's why you lose a lot of manpower for AT infantry. You also need to tech to build panzergrens.

You also need to tech to have panzerfaust for ost and build tier 1 or tier 2 building. If you only tech and not build one of those building you won't have panzerfausts (I sometimes only build tier 2 building because I need panzerfausts from a call in jager). For ost (and OKW) the teching costs are there.
4 Oct 2019, 16:49 PM
#106
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

Finally! Cons don't suck in every situation anymore now!
4 Oct 2019, 17:07 PM
#107
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3218 | Subs: 1



What I was arguing was that Panzerfaust is available on a variety of highly capable units without any sort of squad or tech upgrade even if they are not designed as an AT unit. Every unit you just listed either require squad upgrades or techs to access their snares, and the only units in your list that are also highly capable against infantry while having their snare unlocked are Soviet Guards, who just about happens to have the most expensive and least reliable snare: 40 muni, no damage, requires constant LoS to function, and breaks if the squad moves even a tiny bit.

It's true that PTRS Penals, PTRS Cons, Guards, Riflemen, and Sappers can have both AT weapons and snares. However, that is not my argument. My argument was that Panzerfaust is not objectively worse than Allied counterparts, and part of that reasoning is due to how accessible Panzerfaust is to the Axis on a wide variety of tough infantry units without squad upgrades or sideteching. My point still stands that anything the Panzerfaust has that is "worse" than Allied AT nades is related to unfixable issues with the game engine.

Guards snare requires a 75mu upgrade to unlock.
4 Oct 2019, 21:33 PM
#108
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 324 | Subs: 1



My point was that for ost panzershrecks are avaliable only on panzergrens and that is bad as allies usually don't want to "waste" their good units for carrying AT weapons as it reduces ther anty infantry potential. They use the cheapest units for that - you can't do that with ost and that's why you lose a lot of manpower for AT infantry. You also need to tech to build panzergrens.

You also need to tech to have panzerfaust for ost and build tier 1 or tier 2 building. If you only tech and not build one of those building you won't have panzerfausts (I sometimes only build tier 2 building because I need panzerfausts from a call in jager). For ost (and OKW) the teching costs are there.

Ost Faust is unlocked with T1, which is the same building that trains Grens in the first place...? You don't play for fausts on Grens.

Side tech costs delay progression. With Axis, you get fausts with progression. There's a difference spending manpower and fuel just for AT nades that doesn't offer units and having a tech building built.
5 Oct 2019, 06:59 AM
#109
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663


Ost Faust is unlocked with T1, which is the same building that trains Grens in the first place...? You don't play for fausts on Grens.


... but at the same time time you don't need to build anything to have riflemen, canscripts, sections. To build grens you need to tech. That's typisal assymetry but everybody pays.


Side tech costs delay progression. With Axis, you get fausts with progression. There's a difference spending manpower and fuel just for AT nades that doesn't offer units and having a tech building built.


It's a very small cost and only for one of 3 alled factions. Amercian get it with vet (but can equip bazookas on any unit they want); UK gets the snare on their engineers, and SOV only must pay a bit for sidetech (looking at prices of their buildings and no need to research tech phases the cost is very small and not even evens out the tech requiremt for ost). ALso they get extremely powerful snares on ptrs penals with no tech cost. And guards come with free at weapons.

Also remember that ostheer does not have a light vehicle that has armor immune to small arms. Allies have such vehilces, plus crew repairs. Armor/anti armor weaponry power ratio is better for each allied faction compared to ostheer (they have much better light vehicles and better snares and anty tank upgrades)

Also remember that there are 3 allied facrions vs 2 axis - it also favours allies. Generally OKW is much better than ost in this area. But ost is is weaker here.
5 Oct 2019, 08:16 AM
#110
avatar of Maret

Posts: 572


ALso they get extremely powerful snares on ptrs penals with no tech cost. And guards come with free at weapons.


Penals AT satchels good, but you must sacrifice 2 mens on it and lose almost 30% of squad AI power. Also penals don't have sprint and AT-satchel need usage or: sightblockers or very bad play from axis player.
Guards have "free" AT, but it good only against light armor, you can't fight with PTRS rifles against ostwind or P4. OST have various docs with panzer smoke that completely turn off AT satchels and guards slow down ability.


Also remember that ostheer does not have a light vehicle that has armor immune to small arms. Allies have such vehilces, plus crew repairs. Armor/anti armor weaponry power ratio is better for each allied faction compared to ostheer (they have much better light vehicles and better snares and anty tank upgrades)


Only USF have crew repairs, not all allies. SU have in docs.
Each faction have different design - OST don't have light tanks, but have weapon upgrades without need to pay for sidetech. OST have one of the best mg in game in T0 with AP bullets in vet1. You even could upgrade pgrens with shrecks and got very powerfyll AT squad (if you use doc with OST clowncar, you even could play "ost shreck mini-bus"). OST have stun abilities in stug and in pak40, that as AT much better than UKF and SU ATG. Only USF ATG could be better. And teller mines that instakill any light vehicle.
You still think that OST have worse AT abilities than allies? Against light vehicles on early-mid game you have much than enough AT abilities.

5 Oct 2019, 09:22 AM
#111
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 348

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 08:16 AMMaret


Penals AT satchels good, but you must sacrifice 2 mens on it and lose almost 30% of squad AI power. Also penals don't have sprint and AT-satchel need usage or: sightblockers or very bad play from axis player.
Guards have "free" AT, but it good only against light armor, you can't fight with PTRS rifles against ostwind or P4. OST have various docs with panzer smoke that completely turn off AT satchels and guards slow down ability.



Only USF have crew repairs, not all allies. SU have in docs.
Each faction have different design - OST don't have light tanks, but have weapon upgrades without need to pay for sidetech. OST have one of the best mg in game in T0 with AP bullets in vet1. You even could upgrade pgrens with shrecks and got very powerfyll AT squad (if you use doc with OST clowncar, you even could play "ost shreck mini-bus"). OST have stun abilities in stug and in pak40, that as AT much better than UKF and SU ATG. Only USF ATG could be better. And teller mines that instakill any light vehicle.
You still think that OST have worse AT abilities than allies? Against light vehicles on early-mid game you have much than enough AT abilities.



They only focus on percieved weaknesses and forgot why they are there. Like that shrecks scale way better then zooks or ptrs, who are far less effective vs heaviest armour. But that comes with high cost and fraglitie to keep it from being op. Same with teller one shotting all lights and going insane about the demo and getting it nerfed out of the game.
For allies its lower cost less impact but on less fragile squads and in usf and ukf case they can be on multyple squads.

Its axis (esp ost) always up no matter what with some people.
5 Oct 2019, 12:07 PM
#112
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 08:16 AMMaret


Penals AT satchels good, but you must sacrifice 2 mens on it and lose almost 30% of squad AI power. Also penals don't have sprint and AT-satchel need usage or: sightblockers or very bad play from axis player.
Guards have "free" AT, but it good only against light armor, you can't fight with PTRS rifles against ostwind or P4. OST have various docs with panzer smoke that completely turn off AT satchels and guards slow down ability.



Only USF have crew repairs, not all allies. SU have in docs.
Each faction have different design - OST don't have light tanks, but have weapon upgrades without need to pay for sidetech. OST have one of the best mg in game in T0 with AP bullets in vet1. You even could upgrade pgrens with shrecks and got very powerfyll AT squad (if you use doc with OST clowncar, you even could play "ost shreck mini-bus"). OST have stun abilities in stug and in pak40, that as AT much better than UKF and SU ATG. Only USF ATG could be better. And teller mines that instakill any light vehicle.
You still think that OST have worse AT abilities than allies? Against light vehicles on early-mid game you have much than enough AT abilities.



Most of what you wrote is just difficult to comment because it suggests you should play ostheer in the next 10-20 games, but when I have some time I'll explain why it is difficult to agree with many things you wrote. Generally you must realise that OKW is much stronger than ostheer and some of your impressions are based on OKW's strengths (like volks being pretty potent all around squad with a snare).

The problem from the topic is about cons vs grens balance. IMO conscripts are better at at duties because of their hoorah ability. Grens just don't have that and they have trouble fausting and chasing - sth conscripts can do. Cons are build from tier 0 and grens need a structure - so you don't tech to build cons but you tech to give them extras; you tech to build grens but you don't tech to give them panzerfaust. Cons are 6 or 7 men while grens are 4 so it is easier to wipe grens with vehicles they snare. Cons also build sandbags, grens don't. It is easier to sniper gren than cons. Hoorah can chase and even allow you to kill snipers or run away from them plus higher number of models makes it safer. Cons can be also used to merge, which is verypowerful ability. Coming back to snares there are many more ways in which cons can cooperate with other AT squads. Cons hoorah and snare, penals stchel and fonish off.
5 Oct 2019, 13:44 PM
#113
avatar of Maret

Posts: 572


I have bad news for you - i play mostly for OST and SU. Other factions from time to time. But vanilla factions my favourites.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 12:07 PMachpawel

IMO conscripts are better at at duties because of their hoorah ability. Grens just don't have that and they have trouble fausting and chasing - sth conscripts can do.

Yes grens don't have sprint, but have non-tech snare and got weapon upgrades much more earlier than cons.
Want chasing for grens? Use doctrinal sprint, use camo from docs. The same as for cons weapons - want weapon upgrades for cons - use docs.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 12:07 PMachpawel

Cons are build from tier 0 and grens need a structure - so you don't tech to build cons but you tech to give them extras; you tech to build grens but you don't tech to give them panzerfaust. Cons are 6 or 7 men while grens are 4 so it is easier to wipe grens with vehicles they snare.

I remember that some time ago grens was in T0, while mg-42 was locked in T1 building. Want make reverse?
Want 5-man grens - use doc.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 12:07 PMachpawel

Coming back to snares there are many more ways in which cons can cooperate with other AT squads. Cons hoorah and snare, penals stchel and fonish off.

How much you saw in competitive games that someone go to T1 and after make sidetech to AT-nades and build cons? I almost never. Only tank-hunter doc could give you such combo tactic. All SU almost every game play or penals or cons. But i almost never saw penals + cons even in low tiers game. If you think i am wrong you could saw Dane streams where he comment SU games, try to find wher you see such combo as you described.
I could give you tip how to use faust with other AT squads: grens with faust and pgrens with shrecks - very potent combo.

If you have other ideas how make cons PLAYABLE in game, instead of this Mobile Reserve upgrade (or maybe you have ideas for WHOLE redesign of unit - that make it playable, without current abilities and techs), it will be good to hear. Because no one want again play only in T1 penals. I think you remember the last champs (1vs1 and 2vs2) all SU almost every game go to penals not cons.
5 Oct 2019, 13:47 PM
#114
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 13:44 PMMaret
...

If you have other ideas how make cons PLAYABLE in game, instead of this Mobile Reserve upgrade (or maybe you have ideas for WHOLE redesign of unit - that make it playable, without current abilities and techs), it will be good to hear. Because no one want again play only in T1 penals. I think you remember the last champs (1vs1 and 2vs2) all SU almost every game go to penals not cons.

The problem is that Penal/ST44 VGs are Op and not that conscripts are bad...
It is the
Penal that need a redesign and not conscripts.
5 Oct 2019, 14:11 PM
#115
avatar of Maret

Posts: 572

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 13:47 PMVipper

The problem is that Penal/ST44 VGs are Op and not that conscripts are bad...
It is the
Penal that need a redesign and not conscripts.

Agree. But looks like no one want make big redesign of SU core system. Any "debuff" to penals lead to dead T1 (also farewell snipers and M3). In fact we have only 2 ways:

1. Redesign of penals, penals potent but "new"
2. Completely remove them from SU core, remake SU core and add instead other unit.

2-nd way:
Remove T1, only T2 is exist. M3 and sniper locked in T0, while T2 not been deployed. In T2 you have maxim, mortar, M-42 as ATG, Sidetech upgrade to unlock zis-gun and AT-nades. If T2 deployed cons will get molotovs.

Another way - core system still as is. No penals. But make that if you have T1 you can - "upgrade" your cons squad to AT-hunters, or close combat squad. They turned in completely new squads. That will save cons as mainline infantry and they will be needed to other squads as well and also will save T1 and sniper with M3.



5 Oct 2019, 14:15 PM
#116
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 348



Most of what you wrote is just difficult to comment because it suggests you should play ostheer in the next 10-20 games, but when I have some time I'll explain why it is difficult to agree with many things you wrote. Generally you must realise that OKW is much stronger than ostheer and some of your impressions are based on OKW's strengths (like volks being pretty potent all around squad with a snare).

The problem from the topic is about cons vs grens balance. IMO conscripts are better at at duties because of their hoorah ability. Grens just don't have that and they have trouble fausting and chasing - sth conscripts can do. Cons are build from tier 0 and grens need a structure - so you don't tech to build cons but you tech to give them extras; you tech to build grens but you don't tech to give them panzerfaust. Cons are 6 or 7 men while grens are 4 so it is easier to wipe grens with vehicles they snare. Cons also build sandbags, grens don't. It is easier to sniper gren than cons. Hoorah can chase and even allow you to kill snipers or run away from them plus higher number of models makes it safer. Cons can be also used to merge, which is verypowerful ability. Coming back to snares there are many more ways in which cons can cooperate with other AT squads. Cons hoorah and snare, penals stchel and fonish off.
a

Cons are a good snare unit i agree 100% on that.
But at nade cant be used on buildings, cons lack any sort of decent nade, ptrs,s scale a lot worse then shrecks. The at satchal has an extreme short range, to short for it to be a viable alt to the cons at nade, Tm35 mines dont one shot all lights. Zis and both su,s dont have a snare on them after vet.
Grens do not need to cooperate with other units to finish things off as much as cons do. Ost as a faction does that better then sov.

Grens dont build sandbags but build bunkers. Wich in turn can grant you healing reinforcing and a popcap free static mg. Its not free like the sandbag but you do get more out of it.
Merge is indeed powerfull esp at end tech with 7th man. No argument here.

The thing is about the cons gren balance is that grens need the support and cons are the support. Imo grens dont suck, volks penals sections and rifles all are to good right now.
5 Oct 2019, 14:38 PM
#117
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1

a

Cons are a good snare unit i agree 100% on that.
But at nade cant be used on buildings, ..

That does not mean much since Soviet have some of the best anti building tools like satchel and molotovs.
5 Oct 2019, 16:08 PM
#118
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

a

Cons are a good snare unit i agree 100% on that.
But at nade cant be used on buildings, cons lack any sort of decent nade, ptrs,s scale a lot worse then shrecks. The at satchal has an extreme short range, to short for it to be a viable alt to the cons at nade, Tm35 mines dont one shot all lights. Zis and both su,s dont have a snare on them after vet.
Grens do not need to cooperate with other units to finish things off as much as cons do. Ost as a faction does that better then sov.

Grens dont build sandbags but build bunkers. Wich in turn can grant you healing reinforcing and a popcap free static mg. Its not free like the sandbag but you do get more out of it.
Merge is indeed powerfull esp at end tech with 7th man. No argument here.

The thing is about the cons gren balance is that grens need the support and cons are the support. Imo grens dont suck, volks penals sections and rifles all are to good right now.


You make it sound like playing soviets is an auto lose. Are you playing the same game? Soviets are very strong right now and 7 men cons are very strong. There is a reason many people favor playing soviets over Ostheer, it is because it is still a faction that allows you to make a million mistakes and come back. Ostheer is basically a one mistake is insta lose kind of faction. A lot more fun and frustrating at the same time too.
5 Oct 2019, 16:27 PM
#119
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663



You make it sound like playing soviets is an auto lose. Are you playing the same game? Soviets are very strong right now and 7 men cons are very strong. There is a reason many people favor playing soviets over Ostheer, it is because it is still a faction that allows you to make a million mistakes and come back. Ostheer is basically a one mistake is insta lose kind of faction. A lot more fun and frustrating at the same time too.


Exactly. Just weird to hear about OP grenadiers from a faction that has penals/guards/shocktroops. Uses sniper to shoot at 4 men squads. Has 170manpower engineers etc. Just incredible. I'm not even going to mention other stuff like soviet tanks/katusha/arty. etc. And they keep repeating that ost has best support weapons. Incredible, just incredible.
5 Oct 2019, 16:37 PM
#120
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 13:44 PMMaret

I have bad news for you - i play mostly for OST and SU. Other factions from time to time. But vanilla factions my favourites.


I can't find you on relic ladderbords. What games do you play? 1v1 or more?

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 13:44 PMMaret

Yes grens don't have sprint, but have non-tech snare and got weapon upgrades much more earlier than cons.
Want chasing for grens? Use doctrinal sprint, use camo from docs. The same as for cons weapons - want weapon upgrades for cons - use docs.


And you again - they have to tech to be build - that's why they get the snare. I know doctrines - but it changes nothing - with doctrines cons can do even more than grens (AT nades, ppsh, hit the dirt, to name just a few). The problem is that the unit has more abilities than grens (for free) and is build form t0. I costs the same. Yet can be ugraded more through the game.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 13:44 PMMaret

I remember that some time ago grens was in T0, while mg-42 was locked in T1 building. Want make reverse?
Want 5-man grens - use doc.


It's not about what I want - it is about being objective. Allies have more powerful units with more abilities in general and some people keep repeating that grens or ost has more snares etc. It is just not true. Allies have more AT infantry soultions that are cheap and don't require tech. Cons are the only ones that need to pay a bit for their snare. But they are 6 man, can build cover, can merge and hoorah. All with no tech and from tier 0.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2019, 13:44 PMMaret

How much you saw in competitive games that someone go to T1 and after make sidetech to AT-nades and build cons? I almost never. Only tank-hunter doc could give you such combo tactic. All SU almost every game play or penals or cons. But i almost never saw penals + cons even in low tiers game. If you think i am wrong you could saw Dane streams where he comment SU games, try to find wher you see such combo as you described.

I could give you tip how to use faust with other AT squads: grens with faust and pgrens with shrecks - very potent combo.

If you have other ideas how make cons PLAYABLE in game, instead of this Mobile Reserve upgrade (or maybe you have ideas for WHOLE redesign of unit - that make it playable, without current abilities and techs), it will be good to hear. Because no one want again play only in T1 penals. I think you remember the last champs (1vs1 and 2vs2) all SU almost every game go to penals not cons.


I know what they build - still it is a thread about grens/cons balance. My point is grens are not better when it comes to their snares. I would say the opposite is true - cons are larger squads and can hoorah with a snare - this alone makes them better at snaring than grens.

Don't give me tips - just be more objective - Sov have many more non-doc snare possibilities while ost has only one on grens. Soviet can egip more squads with at weapons (some of them for free) and have both the snare and at weapons on penals.
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