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Vetted 7 man conscripts vs vetted lmg grens..

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2 Oct 2019, 15:06 PM
#61
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983


Because pios can while CEs can't.


ok. I sort of forgot. But maybe grens should build them and engineers should get a panzershreck or democharge instead?.
2 Oct 2019, 18:22 PM
#62
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 570



ok. I sort of forgot. But maybe grens should build them and engineers should get a panzershreck or democharge instead?.


Grens can build bunkers as well as do pio,s. And if the pios get demo,s shoudnt ce,s get extra vision range and cons and penal get a normal/bundle nade so the can actualy wipe easy?
2 Oct 2019, 19:14 PM
#63
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4507

The main reason Conscripts have a large target size (at vet 0) is because models that merge into other units keep some of their basic characteristics, one of which is target size, so that it is disadvantageous to always merge Conscripts into elite units, which would give much lower reinforcement costs. Merge is supposed to be a frontline "panic" ability that allows to keep a certain unit fighting for longer when they really need to. It isn't meant to be used as a regular reinforcement tool.


Is there any consensus for the role of Conscripts anymore? I remember reading that Conscripts are meant to be poor line infantry because their role is support, they throw AT Grenades and merge with other units to reinforce them, they even got a larger squad size so they can fully recrew weapons. But now merge is bad and should only be used in an emergency?

This isn't an aggressive post, I'm just confused as to what Conscripts even are anymore. For years I thought of them as the counterpart to Grenadiers, lately I've been hearing a lot of conflicting statements to the contrary.
2 Oct 2019, 19:29 PM
#64
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

If conscripts are support... and maxims are support aswell... then what the hell are they supporting in a T2 core build?
2 Oct 2019, 19:33 PM
#65
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983



Grens can build bunkers as well as do pio,s. And if the pios get demo,s shoudnt ce,s get extra vision range and cons and penal get a normal/bundle nade so the can actualy wipe easy?


I'd say that:

1. To build a bunker you need manpower and it's rarely a good idea to invest 150 manpower (almost another sov engineer) in a static position unless you are winning anyway. I'd definitely prefer free sandbags for grens.

2. Extra vision was supposed to help ost deal with flanks but I'd rather not have it as engineers should sweep for mines, build base buildings, healing structure, repair vehicles, etc. so you rarely can afford to keep them them constantly supporting your mgs anyway. I'd reduce their vision in exhange for anything (crit repairs, non doc. satchels, ability to equip one panzershreck, etc. - they would be similarly useful to say UK sappers or Sov engies)
2 Oct 2019, 19:40 PM
#66
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

Combat engineers dont recieve schrecks crit repair or satchels...
2 Oct 2019, 19:41 PM
#67
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 19:40 PMgbem
Combat engineers dont recieve schrecks crit repair or satchels...


Of course they don't.

My point is that ostheer has engineers that are quite expensive (200) and are much worse than UK sappers, for example. They are more expensive than Soviet engies and not better than them. If they get sth like the things I mentioned losing their extra sight (which sb suggested), I'd like them to get, for example, an ability to equip a panzershreck.
2 Oct 2019, 19:54 PM
#68
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 918

If you are not gonna significantly buff grenadiers they should atleast be cheaper to reinforce. 30 MP is more than most elite infantry per model which is why you can never go grenadier heavy or 5 man gren because you will bleed MP out of your ass.

This hurts the numbers of strats ostheer can attempt since again... grens lose vs most other mainline infantry and they do certainly don't trade well at all.
2 Oct 2019, 20:01 PM
#69
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 19:54 PMspajn
If you are not gonna significantly buff grenadiers they should atleast be cheaper to reinforce. 30 MP is more than most elite infantry per model which is why you can never go grenadier heavy or 5 man gren because you will bleed MP out of your ass.

This hurts the numbers of strats ostheer can attempt since again... grens lose vs most other mainline infantry and they do certainly don't trade well at all.


Their reinforce cost is equal to that of conscripts

20x6 = 30x4 = 120mp
2 Oct 2019, 20:05 PM
#70
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 20:01 PMgbem


Their reinforce cost is equal to that of conscripts

20x6 = 30x4 = 120mp


Great logics - congratulations...
2 Oct 2019, 20:05 PM
#71
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 918

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 20:01 PMgbem


Their reinforce cost is equal to that of conscripts

20x6 = 30x4 = 120mp


Not if you go 5 man gren squads 30x5=150

Also 7 man conscripts are cheaper to reinforce.
2 Oct 2019, 20:07 PM
#72
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 20:05 PMspajn


Not if you go 5 man gren squads 30x5=150

Also 7 man conscripts are cheaper to reinforce.


vs 7 men cons 7*16 = 112.

This logic is not really helping gbem. :lol:
2 Oct 2019, 20:09 PM
#73
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983



Great logics - congratulations...


I understand that sov snipers should have started shootnig 4 times per minute while ost snipers 7 times per minute once cons became 7 man units.
2 Oct 2019, 20:18 PM
#74
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 19:54 PMspajn
If you are not gonna significantly buff grenadiers they should atleast be cheaper to reinforce. 30 MP is more than most elite infantry per model which is why you can never go grenadier heavy or 5 man gren because you will bleed MP out of your ass.

This hurts the numbers of strats ostheer can attempt since again... grens lose vs most other mainline infantry and they do certainly don't trade well at all.


Spot on - agreed fully
2 Oct 2019, 20:32 PM
#75
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 19:54 PMspajn
If you are not gonna significantly buff grenadiers they should atleast be cheaper to reinforce. 30 MP is more than most elite infantry per model which is why you can never go grenadier heavy or 5 man gren because you will bleed MP out of your ass.

This hurts the numbers of strats ostheer can attempt since again... grens lose vs most other mainline infantry and they do certainly don't trade well at all.


Ostheer just got a 100mp reduction for their T2 structure, I wouldn't give any more mp reductions.

Instead, with the mainline buffs for Sov and USF, I'd just keep your composition at 2-3 Grenadiers max and back them up with infantry which deal more damage for their cost like Assault Grenadiers, (G43) Panzergrenadiers or Stormtroopers. I get either overwhelmed or outtraded in the lategame if I solely rely on LMG Grenadiers as infantry.

Actually, certain players like Brosras, Jae, Nicko and Stuve like to skip T1 with double Pio + double MG42, rush out Pgrens, 222 and Jaeger Command Squad and give their 2-3 Pgrens G43's.

Edit: found a dane cast for this strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90UHqaJhXWg
2 Oct 2019, 20:37 PM
#76
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 918



Ostheer just got a 100mp reduction for their T2 structure, I wouldn't give any more mp reductions.

Instead, with the mainline buffs for Sov and USF, I'd just keep your composition at 2-3 Grenadiers max and back them up with infantry which deal more damage for their cost like Assault Grenadiers, (G43) Panzergrenadiers or Stormtroopers. I get either overwhelmed or outtraded in the lategame if I solely rely on LMG Grenadiers as infantry.

Actually, certain players like Brosras, Jae, Nicko and Stuve like to skip T1 with double Pio + double MG42, rush out Pgrens, 222 and Jaeger Command Squad and give their 2-3 Pgrens G43's.


Tech costs has nothing to do with MP drain from replacements when talking about army composition. Ostheers inablity to rely on a mainline infantry makes them into a house of cards faction... if you doing well you are doing really well but one good flank or lucky grenade/mortar can wreck your army so fast no other faction can compare.
2 Oct 2019, 20:42 PM
#77
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983



Ostheer just got a 100mp reduction for their T2 structure, I wouldn't give any more mp reductions.

Instead, with the mainline buffs for Sov and USF, I'd just keep your composition at 2-3 Grenadiers max and back them up with infantry which deal more damage for their cost like Assault Grenadiers, (G43) Panzergrenadiers or Stormtroopers. I get either overwhelmed or outtraded in the lategame if I solely rely on LMG Grenadiers as infantry.

Actually, certain players like Brosras, Jae, Nicko and Stuve like to skip T1 with double Pio + double MG42, rush out Pgrens, 222 and Jaeger Command Squad and give their 2-3 Pgrens G43's.


Fully agreed from my level perspective. I also feel grens are simply unable to scake well and don't build them. It's sad though because it is a house of cards ost composition.
2 Oct 2019, 20:45 PM
#78
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 20:37 PMspajn


Tech costs has nothing to do with MP drain from replacements when talking about army composition. Ostheers inablity to rely on a mainline infantry makes them into a house of cards faction... if you doing well you are doing really well but one good flank or lucky grenade/mortar can wreck your army so fast no other faction can compare.


Agreed. Manpower bleed with ost is often higher since they tend to lose models more quickly than larger squads.
2 Oct 2019, 20:47 PM
#79
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



vs 7 men cons 7*16 = 112.

This logic is not really helping gbem. :lol:


17*7 = 119... 1mp less than 120

And 5 man grens are quite powerful... not entirely sure how they compare to 7 man cons but id argue that theyre slightly better when out of cover and slightly worse in cover
2 Oct 2019, 21:03 PM
#80
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 20:47 PMgbem


17*7 = 119... 1mp less than 120

And 5 man grens are quite powerful... not entirely sure how they compare to 7 man cons but id argue that theyre slightly better when out of cover and slightly worse in cover


IMHO it's not the 1mp difference that makes no sense here. It's about losing models - look at how 7 man squad changes the role a sniper, for example. Shooting with a 360 manpower unit at 7 man squads means draining 17mp per shot. Soviet sniper keeps draining 30mp per shot on even basic infantry. It's just lack of balance.

Same for grenades, arty strikes, etc.

Ost often loses more manpower winning engagements than soviets losing them. Watch some replays observing how much manpower allied players often have even though they keep losing models like crazy.
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