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Vetted 7 man conscripts vs vetted lmg grens..

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1 Oct 2019, 23:45 PM
#41
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 330 | Subs: 1



Faust vs at nades seem weirdly given.
Allies have faster better light vehicles but Faust is less effective against them because of lower range, need los, and long animation times.

At nades goes off much faster and even faster with oohrah.

I would switch the 2 abilities if it make more sense

I stll say cons also move faster than grens. Will test in weekend with the suggested test map. Like really no one noticed the faster cons squad?


You have severe observation bias.

The differences between AT nades and Faust are miniscule, but not including engine-related bugs, Wehr Faust is the best snare; it has highest penetration and highest range, however slight those advantages are. It has the added bonus of being able to target structures to help destroy caches, which Allied AT nades cannot. And that's not even mentioning how Grens have Faust immediately while Allied squads need a sidetech, squad upgrade, or veterancy for snares.

Nobody noticed the faster cons squad because the squads (and all infantry for that matter) have identical movement speeds.

I.D.E.N.T.I.C.A.L.

You are wasting your time with these tests.
1 Oct 2019, 23:50 PM
#42
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

Both at nade and Faust have the same damage, and at nade have faster aim time
1 Oct 2019, 23:52 PM
#43
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 879

AT nade is also on a unit that has sprint.
2 Oct 2019, 00:37 AM
#44
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 330 | Subs: 1

Both at nade and Faust have the same damage, and at nade have faster aim time

Updated my error, oops!

However, you are technically incorrect about the aim times. Soviet and British AT nades both have 0.5-1s aiming time, US AT riflenade has 2s aiming time, and the Panzerfaust at 0.125s.

The difference you are looking for is the animation and wind up times: 1.5 seconds for Panzerfaust and 0.25 seconds for Sov/Brit AT nades. Combined with the aim time, that means in total Sov/Brit AT nades have 0.75-1.25 seconds before throwing the AT nade versus the Faust's 1.5 seconds. There is nothing we can do about the animation playback speed, but I doubt losing games because the Faust came off 0.5 seconds on average faster than the Sov/Brit AT nades is a common occurrence. Besides, being able to activate the snare earlier due to higher range partially offsets the higher wind up, since unlike Molotov versus Fantasy Flamenade, the projectile is homing, so in the end the difference is negligible.

AT nade is also on a unit that has sprint.

Conscripts have Oorah, but what other Allied AT nades exist on units with sprint? Do Riflemen and Sappers have sprint? Penals, Cav Rifles, and AT Sections don't have sprint either. OP is talking about all Allied AT nades being generally superior to Faust.

On the other hand, many Axis doctrinal units have snares even if they aren't designed as mainline replacements or dedicated AT squads: Osttruppen, Jager, Fallschirmjager. They have mainline replacements that also have snare OR AT upgrade (Panzerfusilier) as well. That's 3/4 combat capable infantry squads that can snare and also fight well against infantry at all stages of the game (if we ask Hans, that's 4/4). Meanwhile the Allied snare call ins are... Meme AT Partysans, AT Section, or Cav Rifles. The only combat-capable squad is Cav Rifles, which is 1/3.

Additionally, Fallschirmjagers can stealth + Faust, and Ambush Camo Grens can do the same. These doctrines are generally a lot more competitive choices than Soviet Tank Hunter or Partisan tactics, which include the only Allied units capable of doing the same.
2 Oct 2019, 00:55 AM
#45
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6313 | Subs: 1

Doctrinaly, there are several abilities which grants either sprints during combat (or not now since couple had been or will be removed), or until engaged.
Some are global and others just individually.
2 Oct 2019, 01:09 AM
#46
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

I kinda get what ra target size do. But im wrapping my head why merge has relation to it. My theory is reconcile with my observation of faster cons move speed. Bigger target size covers more area. Etc.

The above about faust shows the old misconception won't die. Its on Wehr so it must be the best!

We already talk previously and conclude faust is not best or adequate for wehr. Pen values matter little cos health make snares. Homing faust dont matter cos it need los, moving into sight blocker and u wasted muni. Animations matter cos a drop model will reload the whole animations.

2 Oct 2019, 01:37 AM
#47
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 330 | Subs: 1

I kinda get what ra target size do. But im wrapping my head why merge has relation to it. My theory is reconcile with my observation of faster cons move speed. Bigger target size covers more area. Etc.

The above about faust shows the old misconception won't die. Its on Wehr so it must be the best!

We already talk previously and conclude faust is not best or adequate for wehr. Pen values matter little cos health make snares. Homing faust dont matter cos it need los, moving into sight blocker and u wasted muni. Animations matter cos a drop model will reload the whole animations.



Higher RA with merge means that if you merge into elite infantry (which has lower RA) the models that transfer over are easier to kill than the original models.

Pen values matter because the Allied ones can bounce off of generally heavier Axis armor, all health damage incurred is the same. ALL snares need LoS to throw, the faust is not unique. If the faust hits the ground, it's a rare bug that cannot be fixed without repercussions; otherwise Faust LoS is the same as any other snare. Animations cannot be sped up, so there is nothing we can even do about that.

It's not "because it's on Wehr, it must be the best," its that the stats objectively are the best. The only downsides it has are related to a) an unfixable bug and b) an animation restriction that can't be sped up, same as Molotov.

I think your "adequate snare" for Wehr must be a 35-range 160 damage faust that can be targeted regardless of LoS and also confer the immobilized crit.
2 Oct 2019, 02:08 AM
#48
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

If i can, i will switch atnades with faust between alllies and axis, because allies have faster and better LV. Results of years of patch changes. Meaning no Faust is no longer the best cos Wehr!

Still a small matter i can live without

The big meta now is how cons outperform grens late games. The big ra vet needs to be reduced imo. Now vetted cons can bully vetted lmg grens with no way back. Cons are more likely to survive and reinforce cheaper than grens
After you lose your vetted grens, wehr is hard to recover against 7man vet cons.

Usf RM also outpower grens now.

I mean im glad ukf IS was remade with recent patch. But the power creep of the other 2 allies mainline infantry is back to square 1
2 Oct 2019, 03:53 AM
#49
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3235 | Subs: 1

Why shouldn't usf rm out power grens exactly if memory serves there is a 40mp difference there...
2 Oct 2019, 04:00 AM
#50
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

Pgren don't over power rm even if they cost more. Especially as vet levels increase with weapons upgrade. Hence i keep say wehr is worst late game faction, scaling unable to keep up, handicapped because they are seen as the ideal base faction. :(
2 Oct 2019, 04:03 AM
#51
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 575

I REALLY don't think the 7 man consript thing was neccessary.
2 Oct 2019, 09:04 AM
#52
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 04:03 AMCODGUY
I REALLY don't think the 7 man consript thing was neccessary.


before the 7 man upgrade conscripts were the worst infantry ingame
2 Oct 2019, 09:08 AM
#53
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


The big meta now is how cons outperform grens late games. The big ra vet needs to be reduced imo. Now vetted cons can bully vetted lmg grens with no way back. Cons are more likely to survive and reinforce cheaper than grens
After you lose your vetted grens, wehr is hard to recover against 7man vet cons.


this is such a hard l2p issue.. mrgame2 i would recommend learning to play the game properly instead of acting out like grens somehow cant compete against conscripts

in case you ask the solutions are
1. dont fight conscripts that are in cover

2. use the riflenade if they are in cover

3. use vehicles to force conscripts out of cover


if conscripts had their DPS maintained out of cover then it might have been a problem... this simply isnt true however soo the real issue here is you
2 Oct 2019, 10:22 AM
#54
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 3

I kinda get what ra target size do. But im wrapping my head why merge has relation to it. My theory is reconcile with my observation of faster cons move speed. Bigger target size covers more area. Etc.


Target size is literally nothing more than a number that is used to calculate the accuracy of weapons (accuracy value multiplied by target size) firing at a unit.

It does not have anything to do with the size of the models (identical for all infantry) or their movement speed (identical for all infantry) at all. Again, movement speed is identical for all infantry.


The main reason Conscripts have a large target size (at vet 0) is because models that merge into other units keep some of their basic characteristics, one of which is target size, so that it is disadvantageous to always merge Conscripts into elite units, which would give much lower reinforcement costs. Merge is supposed to be a frontline "panic" ability that allows to keep a certain unit fighting for longer when they really need to. It isn't meant to be used as a regular reinforcement tool.
2 Oct 2019, 13:34 PM
#55
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663


On the other hand, many Axis doctrinal units have snares even if they aren't designed as mainline replacements or dedicated AT squads: Osttruppen, Jager, Fallschirmjager. They have mainline replacements that also have snare OR AT upgrade (Panzerfusilier) as well. That's 3/4 combat capable infantry squads that can snare and also fight well against infantry at all stages of the game (if we ask Hans, that's 4/4). Meanwhile the Allied snare call ins are... Meme AT Partysans, AT Section, or Cav Rifles. The only combat-capable squad is Cav Rifles, which is 1/3.

Additionally, Fallschirmjagers can stealth + Faust, and Ambush Camo Grens can do the same. These doctrines are generally a lot more competitive choices than Soviet Tank Hunter or Partisan tactics, which include the only Allied units capable of doing the same.


You seem to forget about ptrs penals (non doc), guards, riflemen, UK engineers and sections from som commanders - they all can have 2 AT solutions avaliable on one unit (no axis infantry can do that unless by picking up dropped weapons). It can be really deadly to have a snare and bazookas/ptrs etc on one unit. Additionally, allies are not forced to equip bazookas/piats/ptrs on expensive anty infantry squads - they don't have to sacrifice anty infantry capabilities of expensive units to have hand held ATs. Especially the second ability (giving cheap units hand held ATs) is imo sth that should be addressed and more balanced.
2 Oct 2019, 14:01 PM
#56
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 09:08 AMgbem


this is such a hard l2p issue.. mrgame2 i would recommend learning to play the game properly instead of acting out like grens somehow cant compete against conscripts

in case you ask the solutions are
1. dont fight conscripts that are in cover

2. use the riflenade if they are in cover

3. use vehicles to force conscripts out of cover


if conscripts had their DPS maintained out of cover then it might have been a problem... this simply isnt true however soo the real issue here is you


Why can't grens build cover if conscripts can?
2 Oct 2019, 14:01 PM
#57
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2722

Why can't grens build cover if conscripts can?


Because Pioneers do it instead.
2 Oct 2019, 14:02 PM
#58
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13777 | Subs: 7



Why can't grens build cover if conscripts can?

Because pios can while CEs can't.
2 Oct 2019, 14:26 PM
#59
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 575

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 09:04 AMgbem


before the 7 man upgrade conscripts were the worst infantry ingame


There will always be a "worst infantry in the game" it might as well be Cons or Osttruppen.
2 Oct 2019, 14:51 PM
#60
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2019, 14:01 PMLago


Because Pioneers do it instead.


Of course :)
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