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Vetted 7 man conscripts vs vetted lmg grens..

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30 Sep 2019, 00:15 AM
#21
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6313 | Subs: 1


Not error prone if you are deliberately using a convoluted method so it can yield the results you want. I mean... Whos first thought for testing movement speed is a triangle pattern?


That looks like problem with pathfinding when using multiple waypoints.

Still, i'm with you. WHO THE HELL makes a triangle path to test speed of units.
30 Sep 2019, 02:57 AM
#22
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701



How about conscripts starting at a target size of 1.087, while grens start at .91 and pgrens start at .8?


Cons high starting ra is by design to balance its bigger squad. But now with 7 man buff and a 40% vet bonus, they simply outmuscle lmg grens, late game vetted.

I think we should relook to make starting ra 1.02 to keep its original theme and the vet bonus be 20% . Still keeping the theme late game and give lmg gren a chance behind cover
30 Sep 2019, 03:00 AM
#23
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701



That looks like problem with pathfinding when using multiple waypoints.

Still, i'm with you. WHO THE HELL makes a triangle path to test speed of units.


I will retry with parallel lines.

I mean i did select both squads and click same time to move. I tried various distances and possibilities. Somehow cons just is faster to reach always. Maybe is larger squad size and the first 2 man reach earlier?

How can i do better with parallel lines, does it include a timer?
30 Sep 2019, 04:09 AM
#24
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

Another one of mrgame2s retarded threads...
1. Cons lose at max range
2. Cons have to be in cover
3. Cons lose at max and midrange at vet 0
4. Grens have a better nade
5. Grens have a longer range faust
MMX
30 Sep 2019, 04:09 AM
#25
avatar of MMX

Posts: 52

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 03:00 AMmrgame2


I will retry with parallel lines.

I mean i did select both squads and click same time to move. I tried various distances and possibilities. Somehow cons just is faster to reach always. Maybe is larger squad size and the first 2 man reach earlier?

How can i do better with parallel lines, does it include a timer?


i'd recommend to use tric's test map (Your text..) for this purpose, if you haven't tried already. the added range indicators come in quite handy.
30 Sep 2019, 11:10 AM
#26
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 04:09 AMgbem
Another one of mrgame2s retarded threads...

5. Grens have a longer range faust


????? :S:S:S:S


both are 20 range rho, and faust is super buggy
30 Sep 2019, 12:14 PM
#27
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1



????? :S:S:S:S


both are 20 range rho, and faust is super buggy


Con AT nade has 20 range, with a non-working bulletin.

Gren Faust has 30 range, with a bulletin that increases it to 32 range. A main strength of the faction.

Volk Faust has 20 range, which IMO makes OKW worst off because of the chance for it to misfire.
30 Sep 2019, 12:36 PM
#28
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13775 | Subs: 7



Con AT nade has 20 range, with a non-working bulletin.

Gren Faust has 30 range, with a bulletin that increases it to 32 range. A main strength of the faction.

Volk Faust has 20 range, which IMO makes OKW worst off because of the chance for it to misfire.

Gren faust is most definitely NOT 30 range.
If it was, it would be impossible NOT to get fausted when using pretty much anything.
30 Sep 2019, 12:55 PM
#29
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720



Con AT nade has 20 range, with a non-working bulletin.

Gren Faust has 30 range, with a bulletin that increases it to 32 range. A main strength of the faction.

Volk Faust has 20 range, which IMO makes OKW worst off because of the chance for it to misfire.




They all seem to be 15 to me.
30 Sep 2019, 13:33 PM
#30
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1513

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 12:55 PMLago


They all seem to be 15 to me.


No. Grens, Fallschirmjäger and Panzerfüsiliers have extra range on their snares compared to the standard 20.
30 Sep 2019, 14:30 PM
#31
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720



No. Grens, Fallschirmjäger and Panzerfüsiliers have extra range on their snares compared to the standard 20.




You appear to be half correct.

These lines are all 5 metres apart. I put each squad on the green strip and saw what range they fired from.

In practice, satchel throwers are throwing from Range 10, most squads are throwing from Range 15, and the squads you listed are throwing from about Range 18.
30 Sep 2019, 22:46 PM
#32
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 275

About snares: there's a difference between weapon range and ability range.

The grenadier faust does have longer weapon range (30), but it doesn't matter, since the ability's range is shorter (18, I think).
1 Oct 2019, 02:13 AM
#33
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 04:09 AMgbem
Another one of mrgame2s retarded threads...
1. Cons lose at max range
2. Cons have to be in cover
3. Cons lose at max and midrange at vet 0
4. Grens have a better nade
5. Grens have a longer range faust


Hence i suggest to make cons ra better at vet0 and lower its vet3 bonus.

Right now vetted 7man cons bully vetted lmg grens. Another issue with wehr weakest late game faction
1 Oct 2019, 02:16 AM
#34
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

About snares: there's a difference between weapon range and ability range.

The grenadier faust does have longer weapon range (30), but it doesn't matter, since the ability's range is shorter (18, I think).


Faust vs at nades seem weirdly given.
Allies have faster better light vehicles but Faust is less effective against them because of lower range, need los, and long animation times.

At nades goes off much faster and even faster with oohrah.

I would switch the 2 abilities if it make more sense

I stll say cons also move faster than grens. Will test in weekend with the suggested test map. Like really no one noticed the faster cons squad?
1 Oct 2019, 09:01 AM
#35
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

About snares: there's a difference between weapon range and ability range.

The grenadier faust does have longer weapon range (30), but it doesn't matter, since the ability's range is shorter (18, I think).


That explains it, I didn't know. The ability range of Ostheer's faust is indeed 18.

I always thought Riflemen had the same snare range as Grenadiers (even when playing with them), but now I know it's the same as Conscripts and Volks.
1 Oct 2019, 09:09 AM
#36
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 02:57 AMmrgame2
Cons high starting ra is by design to balance its bigger squad


Conscripts' base Target Size is high (1.09) mostly because of their Merge ability, not so much because of the number of models in the squad.
1 Oct 2019, 09:31 AM
#37
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

Interesting but i dont get it.
So larger target size helps the merge because it is closer to the other units?
So thats also why cons appear to move faster to me. The unit is larger and cover a larger area?
Make sense?
So i was right so say cons have an advantage in closing down to engage/flank faster, especially for snaring?

Should we reduce target size and its vet bonus as suggested?
1 Oct 2019, 10:28 AM
#38
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13775 | Subs: 7

Interesting but i dont get it.
So larger target size helps the merge because it is closer to the other units?

No, it doesn't, its a disadvantage to merge.


So thats also why cons appear to move faster to me. The unit is larger and cover a larger area?

Make sense?
So i was right so say cons have an advantage in closing down to engage/flank faster, especially for snaring?

No, it doesn't.
Your test was made in very stupid way that isn't conclusive, anything that isn't long straight line with no obstacles will be misleading.
1 Oct 2019, 10:29 AM
#39
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

Interesting but i dont get it.
So larger target size helps the merge because it is closer to the other units?
So thats also why cons appear to move faster to me. The unit is larger and cover a larger area?
Make sense?


Target size (or received accuracy) only affects how likely a model is to get hit by accuracy based weapons and doesn't physically change anything about the model/squad.

Say a certain weapon has 50% accuracy at a certain range and is targeting a model with a target size of 2, the chance to hit becomes 0,5 * 2 = 1 or 100%.


So i was right so say cons have an advantage in closing down to engage/flank faster, especially for snaring?


No. Setting a route with shift commands is not reliable. Squads will move on to each next destination too quickly, especially if they have a bigger squad size.

If you want to compare the speed between two squads, you should let them walk in an equally long, straight line. All infantry should be moving at the same speed though.
1 Oct 2019, 10:32 AM
#40
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



Hence i suggest to make cons ra better at vet0 and lower its vet3 bonus.

Right now vetted 7man cons bully vetted lmg grens. faction


if youre losing vet 3 grens to vet 3 cons in green cover then its your fault for not using the riflenade or utilizing the fact that you dont need cover to be effective... note that cons lose 30% of their dps outside of cover and when in cover are extra vulnerable to a quick riflenade


Another issue with wehr weakest late game


l2p
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