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russian armor

allow 7 man Conscripts PPSH41 or PTRS

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25 Sep 2019, 09:18 AM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6635 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2019, 21:56 PMLago


Global upgrades are anathema to mixed compositions.

Making Conscripts cheaper won't fix the fundamental design problem with global upgrades. Conscript upgrades are only cost effective if you build several squads, so there's little point mixing them into other builds.

Why would people build Conscripts when they're rewarded so heavily for not doing so?

And that is the whole point. Either you spam conscripts and you have to invest in their upgrades or you use a couple of them in a mixed force and you only by the bare essential like AT grenades.
25 Sep 2019, 09:28 AM
#82
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 347

Maybe can change like this——
Upgrade not free upgrade after build T4,but unlock without AT grande and molotov
T3 upgrade will give all consript refinement cost reduce and earn more EXP
Consript Squad upgrade will increase this squad size to 7 and give this squad in cover bouns
25 Sep 2019, 10:15 AM
#83
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 409

it seems some guys here know only the Performance from cons patches ago. Today they arent useless and perform ok for their price, surviveabilty, Abilitys and tool. And in the sov faction as it is now.

what do u want? Grens, IS or rifles dps? 0.8 model size? seriously? for the cheapest mainline with 6(7) models with the highest Ability set....than make the price around 300.


Cons are anything but cheap. You invest more fuel mp into them then any other mainline. Just to unlock basic stuff and a extra model. In t3 you can choose to skip or invest ofcourse.
They eat muni and mp more then any other squad to preform their intended "utility" role.
Their large abilitie deck supports their utility, counteratcs their lacking non doc ai upgrade, and high investment costs. While half their utility is in doctrines.

Cons are fine now indeed in the game. But considering all their investments they need comparativly they should be cheaper at 220mp imo.
25 Sep 2019, 10:29 AM
#84
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 118 | Subs: 2


Its not alone I'm that slot. It's also got hit the dirt which 7 man squads can do.
The ppsh comes much sooner.
It's a trade off and is absolutely valuable in limited quantity for more urban areas.

Even in urban maps the 7th man is the better option because of long term cost. Urban maps tend to be meatgrindy and wipey so the cheaper reinforcement cost plus larger squad size is far the superior option. Especially against OKW where almost all infantry has some automatic or another so they drop a few models before you get close, 7th man doesn't have this problem.
25 Sep 2019, 11:18 AM
#85
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1234

Not sure if it's relevant, but with the amount of PPSH submachine guns used in rifle divisions in 1944-1945, you'd think the conscript assault package would be a stock upgrade, especially considering STGs are stock for OKW.
25 Sep 2019, 11:20 AM
#86
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 118 | Subs: 2

Not sure if it's relevant, but with the amount of PPSH submachine guns used in rifle divisions in 1944-1945, you'd think the conscript assault package would be a stock upgrade, especially considering STGs are stock for OKW.

Makes sense in a way, i heard that the soviets made as many PPSH as the USA made M1 rifles in the entire war.
25 Sep 2019, 11:24 AM
#87
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824

Not sure if it's relevant, but with the amount of PPSH submachine guns used in rifle divisions in 1944-1945, you'd think the conscript assault package would be a stock upgrade, especially considering STGs are stock for OKW.


not sure why a 7model 240mp squad should have the close dps from pgrens which cost 100mp more and have only 4models.

25 Sep 2019, 11:25 AM
#88
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1234



not sure why a 7model 240mp squad should have the close dps from pgrens which cost 100mp more and have only 4models.



I was thinking more about why PPSH isn't stock and 7man doctrinal.
25 Sep 2019, 11:29 AM
#89
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824

lets resume:

- 6(7) models
- 240mp
- t0
- sprint
- merge
- sandbags
- upgradeable with flame nades and at nades
- now with ppsh nondoc (pgrens dps)

yeah..why not...lol

it is like give all advantages without any disadvantages to one unit.

u can have cheap price, good dps, good survive/ abiltys

choose two. NOT THREE.
25 Sep 2019, 11:32 AM
#90
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 118 | Subs: 2

lets resume:

- 6(7) models
- 240mp
- t0
- sprint
- merge
- sandbags
- upgradeable with flame nades and at nades
- now with ppsh nondoc (pgrens dps)

yeah..why not...lol

I think stormjager meant it like mutually exclusive.

swapping the PPSH in docterines for 7th man and making them mutually exclusive like they are now since the 7th man is clearly better and russians used fuck tons of PPSH in the war so it has some historical basis.
25 Sep 2019, 11:34 AM
#91
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1234


I think stormjager meant it like mutually exclusive.

swapping the PPSH in docterines for 7th man and making them mutually exclusive like they are now since the 7th man is clearly better and russians used fuck tons of PPSH in the war so it has some historical basis.
25 Sep 2019, 11:34 AM
#92
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824


I think stormjager meant it like mutually exclusive.

swapping the PPSH in docterines for 7th man and making them mutually exclusive like they are now since the 7th man is clearly better and russians used fuck tons of PPSH in the war so it has some historical basis.


even with 6models it would be too good nondoc
25 Sep 2019, 11:42 AM
#93
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 118 | Subs: 2



even with 6models it would be too good nondoc


LOL no

unlike the other mainline upgrades the PPSH have severe tactical downsides that do not really synergies well with the unit holding them unlike the others

Grenadier MG42: unit focused on long range so the slight inconvenience of not being able to fire the MG42 on the move is not that big of a deal since you are supposed to keep at range anyway.

Section Bren: see Grenadier

Volksgrenadier MP44: mid to short range damage increase that is useful in all engagements

Bar Rifles: see Volksgrenadier

Conscripts: Increase short range fire power (and I mean stepping on toes short) in place for mid to long range fire power on a unit that dies fast and has no smoke.

So no, switching 7th man for PPSH would not be OP as they stand now.
25 Sep 2019, 11:49 AM
#94
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824



LOL no

unlike the other mainline upgrades the PPSH have severe tactical downsides that do not really synergies well with the unit holding them unlike the others

Grenadier MG42: unit focused on long range so the slight inconvenience of not being able to fire the MG42 on the move is not that big of a deal since you are supposed to keep at range anyway.

Section Bren: see Grenadier

Volksgrenadier MP44: mid to short range damage increase that is useful in all engagements

Bar Rifles: see Volksgrenadier

Conscripts: Increase short range fire power (and I mean stepping on toes short) in place for mid to long range fire power on a unit that dies fast and has no smoke.

So no, switching 7th man for PPSH would not be OP as they stand now.


i guess u never uses ppsh cons with sprint? they close the distance with losing mostly one model. after this they shred all above other units u mentioned.
25 Sep 2019, 11:50 AM
#95
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13964 | Subs: 7



i guess u never uses ppsh cons with sprint? they close the distance with losing mostly one model. after this they shred all above other units u mentioned.

I guess you've never used PGs, who beat them without much of a fuss, or HMG42, which stops them dead in their tracks.

You do realize that ost can build something else but grens?
25 Sep 2019, 11:56 AM
#96
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2019, 11:50 AMKatitof

I guess you've never used PGs, who beat them without much of a fuss, or HMG42, which stops them dead in their tracks.

You do realize that ost can build something else but grens?


once again: if you could understand what u read..that would be really great and helpfull. .When you would look what i answered you would realize that someone else said that all other mainline squad beat cons.
There was no MG in this discuss. and no KT and no PW and no tripple fall and no Brummbar or Stiger. You should really read all the posts more than once...yo maybe you understand the context.
25 Sep 2019, 12:27 PM
#97
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3412 | Subs: 1


Even in urban maps the 7th man is the better option because of long term cost. Urban maps tend to be meatgrindy and wipey so the cheaper reinforcement cost plus larger squad size is far the superior option. Especially against OKW where almost all infantry has some automatic or another so they drop a few models before you get close, 7th man doesn't have this problem.

That's great if you want to wait until you are building tanks to use cons. If you want to have a bit more punch sooner you can opt to go ppsh. You don't have to upgrade everyone, and if you are taking losses while closing you arnt using it right. The pint of using it in urban areas is so you have sight blockers to help you get in there.
It's niche but not useless
25 Sep 2019, 14:04 PM
#98
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 118 | Subs: 2



i guess u never uses ppsh cons with sprint? they close the distance with losing mostly one model. after this they shred all above other units u mentioned.


I do use Urrah sprint a lot actually. My early game soviet build is 3 cons into Molotov to deal with Mg42's so I'd like to think I understand the concept of cons sprinting.

Cons usually get schredded way before they close in even especially with the amount of panzergrenadiers on the field now a days.
25 Sep 2019, 14:18 PM
#99
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824



I do use Urrah sprint a lot actually. My early game soviet build is 3 cons into Molotov to deal with Mg42's so I'd like to think I understand the concept of cons sprinting.

Cons usually get schredded way before they close in even especially with the amount of panzergrenadiers on the field now a days.


this lays maybe in the facts pgrens are close compat specialists and much more expansive.

once more: it was postet that cons lose to all other mainline infantry. thats wrong with ppsh...right is: they win easily any Engagement vs them when equipped with ppsh and use sprint
25 Sep 2019, 14:20 PM
#100
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 118 | Subs: 2


That's great if you want to wait until you are building tanks to use cons. If you want to have a bit more punch sooner you can opt to go ppsh. You don't have to upgrade everyone, and if you are taking losses while closing you arnt using it right. The pint of using it in urban areas is so you have sight blockers to help you get in there.
It's niche but not useless


I know how to use assault infantry, its the infantry I most enjoy using. The problem is that unlike MP40 volks, it's closest competitor they don't have smoke grenades to close the gap 7 man conscripts or SVT's will always be the better long term tactical and strategically option. With the side problem of that it makes a big chunk of Russian commanders with only PPSH and no elite infantry have barely any use.

Commanders like:

Conscript support tactics
Soviet reserve army
Advanced warfare tactics

Note that 2 of these commanders have the absolutely useless rapid conscription ability to further make them worthless.
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