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allow 7 man Conscripts PPSH41 or PTRS

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22 Sep 2019, 09:31 AM
#41
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 548



Lol be carefull what you wish for. You might not like what axis need to give for compensation.

And no neither shock are OP. Good but not op.


Sorry, but Shocks on close maps are op or borderline imo. And I will never understand why shocks got a mid rage buff. Its alright that they murder axis units in close quarter situations but its ridiculous that they can even wipe retreating squads at midrange.

Edit:
Based on my games since the new commander patch was released i have to say that i see a lot more conscript builds from soviet players. Penal spam is not as dominant as it was before and thats good.
22 Sep 2019, 09:34 AM
#42
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 345

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 09:31 AMSmartie


Sorry, but Shocks on close maps are op or borderline imo. And I will never understand why shocks got a mid rage buff. Its alright that they murder axis units in close quarter situations but its ridiculous that they can even wipe retreating squads at midrange.


If shocks murder retreating inf mid range you retreated to late.
Shocks are ai specialist. You dont fight shocks with regular inf esp, you fight them with vehicles or long range ai specialist elite inf.
22 Sep 2019, 09:36 AM
#43
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 345

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 09:31 AMSmartie


Sorry, but Shocks on close maps are op or borderline imo. And I will never understand why shocks got a mid rage buff. Its alright that they murder axis units in close quarter situations but its ridiculous that they can even wipe retreating squads at midrange.

Edit:
Based on my games since the new commander patch was released i have to say that i see a lot more conscript builds from soviet players. Penal spam is not as dominant as it was before and thats good.


I still have a tough time making t2 work at all dispite cons being better. Esp vs okw. The maxim imo is still underwelming for its tech plus cost. It still gets wiped frontaly by a single or just 2 squads to often.
22 Sep 2019, 10:09 AM
#44
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 548



I still have a tough time making t2 work at all dispite cons being better. Esp vs okw. The maxim imo is still underwelming for its tech plus cost. It still gets wiped frontaly by a single or just 2 squads to often.


I can understand that Soviet t2 build have a tough time against OKW. I play wehrmacht in most matches and have to admit that i struggle against soviet t2 because i dont have the stuka to punish team weapons.

I dont to say that t2 dont have issues but its certianly better than before the new commander patch.

22 Sep 2019, 10:14 AM
#45
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13758 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 09:11 AMblancat


ok, buff cons

then nerf fucking OP shocks and guards

Flaweless logic!

So, when we are nerfing fallshirms, JLI, Pfussies and storms?
22 Sep 2019, 10:33 AM
#46
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 324 | Subs: 1

I think allowing live 7-man cons to have slot items AND 7-man is way too overkill. The survivability increase with DPS increase plus all the extras of 7-man are too powerful to co-exist with slot items fairly.

7-man cons are easily one of the best upgrades in the whole game. So much so that it makes doctrinal items (that were previously considered "good") like PPSh or SVT40 cons less desirable.

If slot item cons with the upgrade is to be considered, then the 7-man model will need a serious nerf or tone down to compensate.

I wouldn't mind a rework of Mobilized Reserves that performs like this:
* Lower cover bonus (15-25% weapon cooldown reduction instead of 30%)
* No extra man
* No cheaper reinforce (current reinforce time bonus is okay)
* Revert locked behind tech back to T4
* Allow for slot item/doc upgrades to be used (PPSh should take 1 slot size)
* Global upgrade for all Cons
I also wouldn't mind seeing Mobilized Reserves auto-unlocking molotov+at nade if they weren't already purchased, but hey, that's just me.
22 Sep 2019, 13:50 PM
#47
avatar of blancat

Posts: 601

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 10:14 AMKatitof

Flaweless logic!

So, when we are nerfing fallshirms, JLI, Pfussies and storms?



nerfing falls and JLI is neccessary

i saw so many bias idiot axis fan boy in this forum

but i think u are allies fan boy alike them

As the same fanboys bark at each other from both sides, the forum becomes dirty
22 Sep 2019, 14:25 PM
#48
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 344

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 10:14 AMKatitof

Flaweless logic!

So, when we are nerfing fallshirms, JLI, Pfussies and storms?


If that will come with a volks or another gren buff... *minecraft death sound*
22 Sep 2019, 14:28 PM
#49
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3215 | Subs: 1

A volks buff? Oh jeeze... What more could they give them?
22 Sep 2019, 14:32 PM
#50
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 838

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 10:14 AMKatitof

Flaweless logic!

So, when we are nerfing fallshirms, JLI, Pfussies and storms?


+1
22 Sep 2019, 18:42 PM
#51
avatar of 13greed47

Posts: 53

A volks buff? Oh jeeze... What more could they give them?






give them shreck back


okw player: that would prevent blobing.
22 Sep 2019, 19:28 PM
#52
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690

Plz no.

I wish PTRS conscripts could still throw molotovs though. No reason they shouldn't be able to; pfusies, pgrens, and recon support paras can all still throw nades when given their AT upgrades, and they have real grenades.
22 Sep 2019, 21:12 PM
#53
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3215 | Subs: 1

Plz no.

I wish PTRS conscripts could still throw molotovs though. No reason they shouldn't be able to; pfusies, pgrens, and recon support paras can all still throw nades when given their AT upgrades, and they have real grenades.

Why would you retain the ability to do something you paid specifically for? Madness to expect such things! MADNESS!
22 Sep 2019, 22:22 PM
#54
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6308 | Subs: 1

Big no to OP.

Plz no.

I wish PTRS conscripts could still throw molotovs though. No reason they shouldn't be able to; pfusies, pgrens, and recon support paras can all still throw nades when given their AT upgrades, and they have real grenades.


Not sure why this is a thing.

"As having more than 9 decks, having too many buttons would confuse people".

What's the button for AT nade assault and molotov ?
22 Sep 2019, 22:31 PM
#55
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 531 | Subs: 1

The doctrinal upgrades would be too much

I wish it left them with a weapon slot, though. Obersoldaten are allowed to have two LMG34 (drops permitting), but conscripts are locked out from pickups for the price of them actually being worth a damn late game.

The Grenadier upgrades don't lock out another pickup, but cons? Gotta make sure they can't scavenge for some reason.
23 Sep 2019, 00:06 AM
#56
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 488 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 10:33 AMKasarov
I think allowing live 7-man cons to have slot items AND 7-man is way too overkill. The survivability increase with DPS increase plus all the extras of 7-man are too powerful to co-exist with slot items fairly.

7-man cons are easily one of the best upgrades in the whole game. So much so that it makes doctrinal items (that were previously considered "good") like PPSh or SVT40 cons less desirable.

If slot item cons with the upgrade is to be considered, then the 7-man model will need a serious nerf or tone down to compensate.

I wouldn't mind a rework of Mobilized Reserves that performs like this:
* Lower cover bonus (15-25% weapon cooldown reduction instead of 30%)
* No extra man
* No cheaper reinforce (current reinforce time bonus is okay)
* Revert locked behind tech back to T4
* Allow for slot item/doc upgrades to be used (PPSh should take 1 slot size)
* Global upgrade for all Cons
I also wouldn't mind seeing Mobilized Reserves auto-unlocking molotov+at nade if they weren't already purchased, but hey, that's just me.


I agree that because 7 man cons are so good they are distracting from doctrinal upgrades, which in turn makes doctrinal upgrade based Conscript builds less desirable which makes fewer commanders viable which makes Soviets less diverse to play.

I say change the mobilize reserves upgrade to be a stepping stone upgrade that is comparable with other upgrades but much less good on its own. Still worth getting on its own, but synergizes well with other upgrades too without being op.

Remove cover bonus, lock to tier 4.

Give back one weapon slot that can be used to get a doctrinal upgrade or pick up a dropped weapon.

Also reduce the power of the doctrinal upgrades slightly so that when combined they aren’t too strong. This could take the form of simply giving only 2 PPShs or 3 SVTs for those upgrades. No change needed for the PTRS package since it’s an AT upgrade.

The result is that:

Mobilize reserves is slight weaker alone.

SVT or PPSh upgrades are slightly weaker alone.

SVT or PPSh + Mobilize Reserves is slightly stronger than Mobilize Reserves is currently on its own but without the cover gimmick and only at short range for the PPShs. SVTs can remain an all range buff as it is only in one doctrine and should still be weaker at short range than PPShs.


23 Sep 2019, 00:23 AM
#57
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3215 | Subs: 1

Part of the appeal of the doctrinal upgrades is that you don't have to wait until tanks are on the field to have your core infantry scale. Benifit now or benifit more later, it's lucky that the upgrades don't exclusively offer the weapon upgrades for cons (ptrs aside, but that's a full conversion so it's not really important). Ppsh still gives hit the dirt and SVTs can still drop for anyone
23 Sep 2019, 01:38 AM
#58
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1279

Big no to OP.



Not sure why this is a thing.

"As having more than 9 decks, having too many buttons would confuse people".

What's the button for AT nade assault and molotov ?


AT nade assault replaces the normal snare. I think it's the detect armor ability that replaces the molotov. I do wish they would've just used the middle buttons instead of replacing the original abilities. They end up pretty gimped so you often end up using only 1 or at most 2 squads as PTRS cons. I do think it would be okay for the PTRS cons to get the 7 man upgrade. PPSH cons would be terrible to play against if 7 men.
23 Sep 2019, 08:38 AM
#59
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6376 | Subs: 1

The doctrinal upgrades would be too much

I wish it left them with a weapon slot, though. Obersoldaten are allowed to have two LMG34 (drops permitting), but conscripts are locked out from pickups for the price of them actually being worth a damn late game.

The Grenadier upgrades don't lock out another pickup, but cons? Gotta make sure they can't scavenge for some reason.

Maybe the reason is because axis do not have access to drop able weapon like SVTs, Piats and Vickes-k.

7 men SVT conscripts would be problematic to say the least.
23 Sep 2019, 12:22 PM
#60
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

I'd be hesitant to adjust the raw performance of Shocks: they're finally a state where they're usable but counterable.

They could maybe stand to have a later timing though. CP2 is very early for that sort of unit.


I'm unconvinced that Guards are still a problem. I can see why people would have philosophical problems with a combination AI-AT squad, but I don't think their present power level is anything to write home about.


As for Conscripts? Ditch the sidetech.

Conscripts are always going to be an inferior option when you have to pay an extra 230 MP 20 FU just to unlock their utility abilities. A smaller sideteching barrier was enough to all but exterminate Ostheer T2.

Throw out Conscript sidetech entirely. It doesn't achieve its design goals. If that cost has to be in the tech tree, put it on T3 so Penal builds can't skip it.

So long as the Penal teching path is stronger and cheaper, Conscripts are always going to be off-meta.
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