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allow 7 man Conscripts PPSH41 or PTRS

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20 Sep 2019, 19:02 PM
#22
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2827

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 15:31 PMVipper

Like?


CP0 or CP1.

MP40 Volks, Assault Grenadiers and Assault Engineers are CP0.
Assault Sections and Cavalry Riflemen are CP1.

I'd personally go for CP1.
20 Sep 2019, 19:26 PM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6629 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 19:02 PMLago


CP0 or CP1.

MP40 Volks, Assault Grenadiers and Assault Engineers are CP0.
Assault Sections and Cavalry Riflemen are CP1.

I'd personally go for CP1.

Not really there is little connection with the things you mention.

MP-40 have a tech cost and are not practically available from CP 0.

Assault grenadiers and Assault Engineers are call-in units with a CD (that cost 280) and not upgrades. You should be asking for a new unit armed with PPSh, no snare and not earlier access to an upgrade.

In addition PPsh for some strange reason comes for "free" with "hit the ground" further complicating things.

The majority of units/abilities that "feel" up do so because the power level of most thing have been increased (too much imo).

Imo the time to buff units has pasted it is time to nerf units...
20 Sep 2019, 19:30 PM
#24
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3402 | Subs: 1

Isn't the cost of con ppsh usinh cons before you get the ppsh? That's gotta count for something...
20 Sep 2019, 19:42 PM
#25
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4069

want them like mp 40 volks ? fine, lock them behind flame and at nade unlock (+ tier 2 or 1)
20 Sep 2019, 21:40 PM
#26
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

Lol that would be a hilarious but horrible idea.
21 Sep 2019, 09:59 AM
#27
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 118 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 19:26 PMVipper

Not really there is little connection with the things you mention.

MP-40 have a tech cost and are not practically available from CP 0.

In addition PPsh for some strange reason comes for "free" with "hit the ground" further complicating things.



You can realisticly get mp40's equiped on volks at 4:30 minutes at 1CP so i say give the PPSH41 at 1CP aswell.

yes Cons get hit the dirt but volks get smoke grenades that can be argued to be way more usefull for an mainline assault unit.
21 Sep 2019, 11:14 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6629 | Subs: 1


You can realisticly get mp40's equiped on volks at 4:30 minutes at 1CP so i say give the PPSH41 at 1CP aswell.

One need tech the other does not. In order to get early MP-40/ST44 one has to invest in tech PPsh come for "free".


yes Cons get hit the dirt but volks get smoke grenades that can be argued to be way more usefull for an mainline assault unit.

One replace the flame grenade with fragmentation grenade also.

The 2 abilities have completely different power levels. One changes the role of VG and it is at best situational compared to ST44 VG the other make what conscript spam a viable tactic.

I doubt anyone would pick an OKW commander to get MP-40 while people who want to use Conscripts choose commanders with PPsh.

Next thing we should make G43 CP1 also...

Once more the problem is not that PPsh upgrade is weak in anyway, the problem is the "power creep". It is about time to start nerfing units instead of this constant buffing.
21 Sep 2019, 16:38 PM
#29
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 297 | Subs: 1



This still wont change the fact that commanders that rely on Conscripts and Conscript upgrades instead of elite infantry struggle greatly late game because once your vetted conscript squad dies you are going to have a problem fielding any significant infantry.

This problem is unique for the cons since for example the MP40 Volksgrenadiers (closed unit to ppsh cons) scale way better into late game due to their better veterancy and more consistent dps curve.

Another way to bring the PPSh41 upgrade into line with the other assault packages for line infantry is to give PPSH41's but tone down the performance of each gun to m3 grease gun mp40 levels. Again, for the more consistent dps curve. Also the CP's need to be lower and similar to mp40 and sten upgrade at 0CP.



Volks have had inferior vet bonuses compared to Cons and Riflemen for almost 3 years now.

PPshes are way better than mp40s, and mp40 Volks drop proportional dps way faster than PPSH cons.
21 Sep 2019, 17:03 PM
#30
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 526


PPshes are way better than mp40s, and mp40 Volks drop proportional dps way faster than PPSH cons.


Assgren/Volks MP-40s are/were* very close in profile to Conscript PPSh-41s, but have marginally higher DPS at every range except range 11, where conscripts do 0.126 more DPS, and again after range 30, where both weapons are essentially useless anyway. Conscript PPSh DPS dips below 1 at range 18 while Assgren MP40s don't until range 23.


*I'm also using https://coh2db.com/stats/ for the DPS charts, which predates the Assgren MP-40 buff that came with the Assgren rework, so they're almost certainly even better than conscript PPSh-41s now.
21 Sep 2019, 18:54 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3402 | Subs: 1

alos desnt the mp40 package add an RA buff and smoke grenades?
21 Sep 2019, 19:23 PM
#32
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13953 | Subs: 7

alos desnt the mp40 package add an RA buff and smoke grenades?

It does.
22 Sep 2019, 00:42 AM
#33
avatar of blancat

Posts: 631

No

STOP buffing soviet
22 Sep 2019, 01:53 AM
#34
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 00:42 AMblancat
No

STOP buffing soviet


A rework doesn’t have to be a buff.

If you remove part of the buffs that the 7 man upgrade gives then allow them to also get PPShs, SVTs or PTRS then it’s not a buff, it’s a rework.

-remove in cover bonuses from 7 man upgrade. Now it’s only an extra model and reduced reinforcement cost and veterancy requirements.

-move the 7 man upgrade to tier 4 so it unlocks for free at tier 4 but cannot be unlocked earlier.

-add a weapon slot back to 7 man upgrade. Now upgraded squads can pick up a weapon or get a doctrinal upgrade.

-rework PPSh and SVT upgrade to have one less PPSh or SVT respectively so the added man later on isn’t too strong when combined.

Result, 7 man cons are less powerful without a doctrinal upgrade and doctrinal upgrades are less powerful without the 7 man upgrade. This allows a Soviet player the ability to incrementally buff his Conscripts with munitions and fuel investments and upgrades as the match goes on. Each upgrade would also be less of a steep power spike that plateaus and more of a stair step of smaller power spikes that get incrementally better and synergize well together.

22 Sep 2019, 02:10 AM
#35
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3402 | Subs: 1

The whole point of the 7 man upgrade is so cons can be powerful WITHOUT a doctrine... Watering it down so it works betterwith a select few commanders returns cons to the "yea let's just shelf these lads again" pile.
22 Sep 2019, 05:54 AM
#36
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1

The whole point of the 7 man upgrade is so cons can be powerful WITHOUT a doctrine... Watering it down so it works betterwith a select few commanders returns cons to the "yea let's just shelf these lads again" pile.


That’s why you reduce the power of the doctrinal Conscript upgrades too. That way a Conscript only build will still pretty much require picking a doctrine with PPShs or SVTs in order to be your main damage dealers. But the 7 man Conscripts will still be valuable support troops for supporting a Penal heavy build or a Guards heavy build. Even Shock Troops will still benefit from having Conscripts around for the utility.

What this would hurt the most would be doctrines that don’t have Guards, Shock Troops or a Conscript upgrade. That doesn’t leave much out, and those doctrines will still be fine for tier 1 Penal Troops builds.

But, ya know, that’s just my opinion man. :/
22 Sep 2019, 08:28 AM
#37
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13953 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 00:42 AMblancat
No

STOP buffing soviet

We will, the moment stock army that isn't penal spam will be up to the task.
22 Sep 2019, 09:11 AM
#38
avatar of blancat

Posts: 631

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 08:28 AMKatitof

We will, the moment stock army that isn't penal spam will be up to the task.


ok, buff cons

then nerf fucking OP shocks and guards
22 Sep 2019, 09:28 AM
#39
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 558

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 09:11 AMblancat


ok, buff cons

then nerf fucking OP shocks and guards


+1
22 Sep 2019, 09:28 AM
#40
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 406

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2019, 09:11 AMblancat


ok, buff cons

then nerf fucking OP shocks and guards


Lol be carefull what you wish for. You might not like what axis need to give for compensation.

And no neither are OP. Good but not op.
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