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su76 need adjustments

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rqd
20 Sep 2019, 16:18 PM
#161
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65



Him and almost everyone else. But hey, SU 76 is fine...


How can such an underused unit be fine... Maybe it is perfectly "fine" to axis players:snfPeter:

They should try it before making conclusions. Basically it is hardly a better light vehicle counter than aec or puma, considering tech cost.
20 Sep 2019, 16:19 PM
#162
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6419 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 16:08 PMMaret

...Could i apply this sentence to "old ostwind" and "old pgrens"? Just told me.
...

Once more PG and Ostwind are a different case. Both unit are powered creeped to the point that they where UP.

SU-76 is a cost efficient unit.
20 Sep 2019, 16:19 PM
#163
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1537

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 16:08 PMMaret


Again, how much you see SU-76 in competitve games like last 1vs1 champ?



People don't understand this. SU 76 isn't used despite everyone having T3 with every Soviet build. Guess why?

It's like people in these forums just ignore in-game realities because it suits their agenda. Or maybe they think rank 4000 4v4 games are representative of COH2 balance. I don't know.
20 Sep 2019, 16:36 PM
#164
avatar of Maret

Posts: 579

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 16:19 PMVipper

Once more PG and Ostwind are a different case. Both unit are powered creeped to the point that they where UP.

SU-76 is a cost efficient unit.


Hell yea, time for magnificent stories. It was cost effective in old-times (with insane ROF and free barrage) when call-in meta was alive and you can call-in heavy. Bit it dead and smell like dead already long time.

My english sometimes failed me - what means "cost efficient" in your language? Because sometimes i think we talking in 2 different languages. In my language it's closer to - unit that for it's cost give you more value than it's cost. T-70 - cost effective unit in 9 minute? SU-76 in 9 minute? Will be su-76 cost effective in 13 minute when p4 will arrive (don;t forget about T4 delay in you can't call-in IS-2 until build T4)? How much it give to you field pressure in 9 or 13 minute? It will be cost effective if you start from T2?
Why almost every SU player from pros to someone who have brain - build 1-st unit in T3 - T-70 or make skip to fast T4? Why no one ever build SU-76? It not 1-st unit, not 2-nd, even not 3-rd.
20 Sep 2019, 17:02 PM
#165
avatar of Maret

Posts: 579

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 16:19 PMVipper

Once more PG and Ostwind are a different case. Both unit are powered creeped to the point that they where UP.

SU-76 is a cost efficient unit.


I think you pro SU player and could me told in which oppening i should build su-76 and against which threats? Only with timings please.

T1 openning? Penals with ptrs could punch back LV like 222 or luchs, until my T-70 hit the field.
T2 openning? I have zis.

That means that only in T1 you can build su-76.
Let's look at situation when 2 equal players fight against each other.
AS you know you can build T-70 at 9 minute. SU-76 too. P4 will arrive at 13 minute. Average fuel income in 1vs1 +23 fuel per minute (1 fuel point+half map). It means, that after T-70 you can build T4 right in the same time when P4 arrive (you need 90 fuel on T4). I think, you as pro player not will build SU-76 as 1-st unit, right? You need strong field pressure and want to chase and hunt on germans mg's and soldiers. Oh, what a cruel fate! Sneaky germans planted teller mine and you lost yor precious t-70. What will be you actions? Build su-76 to try counter 1-st P4, try to build T4, make backteching to zis? Don't forget no one SU player don't build su-76 when have T4.

20 Sep 2019, 17:06 PM
#166
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

Pgrens came too late to be useful and had a trashy vet 1 ability for their role but even then they did well eniugh against the Soviet. It was the introduction of durable and hard hitting WFA infantry that made pgrens undesirable more than anything.
Old Ostwind was unreliable and was in need of a buff imo, but the su76 isn't unreliable.

The reason you don't see it in high play is because they games aren't super one sided to the point that the best of us need something to bridge the gap to getting t4. At any rate a fail to see how "pay munitions and now the enemy is highlighted into the FOW" will suddenly turn the su76 from back up AT to the next hot thihg that people are going to delay they tech for if they don't have to (exactly like now) especially with the current saturation of man AT.

As I said way back, I could see an increase to damage but a full on (or half assed) redisgn isn't needed.
20 Sep 2019, 17:17 PM
#167
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1680

Im not native english speaker but this is very challenging to read.
jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 17:02 PMMaret

I think you pro SU player and could me told in which oppening i should build su-76 and against which threats? Only with timings please.
...

I think thedarkarmadillo got the point at post #158.
Not all units are bound to be "opening builds" units, because that removes the reactive part of the game at all. Its like rock-paper-scissors but with more steps.

In the current game, after many patches, a few kind of unit design still persist. They are not mutually exclusive.
Opening build units, for standard, risky or safer openings. Mainline infantry and core units are included, even heavy tanks can fall into this category.
Reactive units are those you only ask if the other player has shown a clear strategy, I.e. mg spam, go for indirect fire. Infantry blobs, go for HMG and rocket arty. Panic puma was another example. SU76 fits this category right now
Meta game units are units seen most often because a balance or meta game favors them, JLI spam because they were OP, command panther, bolstered infantry sections, dodge car and cav riflemen. They sometimes exploit cheese or game unbalances, the meta game is about the surrounding aspects of the game in order to win. Its like using the game rules against itself.

Because SU76 is already known to be a reactive unit, its worthless to mention it as a opening build kind of unit. Therefore the whole question lacks of sense.

SU76 was an opening build unit before, when it had free barrage simply because you could spam it easily. The nerf su76 got, put it into the reactive unit design, as it was intended IMO. If it needs a buff it should be focuse towards the reactive unit design.
20 Sep 2019, 18:30 PM
#168
avatar of Maret

Posts: 579


Reactive units are those you only ask if the other player has shown a clear strategy, I.e. mg spam, go for indirect fire. Infantry blobs, go for HMG and rocket arty. Panic puma was another example. SU76 fits this category right now

Because SU76 is already known to be a reactive unit, its worthless to mention it as a opening build kind of unit. Therefore the whole question lacks of sense.


It doesn't work even as reactive unit. If SU-76 will be in soviet T4 it could be reactive unit - "poor man" su-85. But in T3 it don't work in this role. I saw so many games when SU player lost T-70 in teller mine or pak. Almost no one build SU-76. What it shows? Why in desperate situations OST player make shrecks? Why even against P4 through T1 almost every player make backtech to zis?

I told it multiple time before:

1. If we want keep SU-76 in T3 it should change it's role to AI support tool
2. If we move it to T4 it could be reactive unit, as cheap hardcounter against P4. It could work.

I prefer 1-st way. Beacause 2-nd way IMHO will be much harder to balance.
20 Sep 2019, 18:39 PM
#169
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 274

Su76 needs to hard counter lights and and to scare off mediums.

Currently it works as a mobile Zis, a zis that does less damage, has less pen and less surviability (400hp against 480hp only taking into the account the crew health and not the gun itself)

While it would be cool for the unit the act like a scott, the soviet roster already has the T70 for anti-infantry duties, while lacking terribly in any kind of stop gap for light vehicles, and we have to remember, the zis slow rate of fire makes it inneficient at killing lights.

There is a reason why people go straight for a T70 instead of something else. Its because the unit gives the faction the wiping tools it desperately needs, as the overall design of the soviet damage is to spread damage across models or burst damage, also spread across models

Increase pen, increase hp to 580, and increase damage

20 Sep 2019, 18:45 PM
#170
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

I fail to see at all how coming later makes it more of a reactionary unit....
You have it availible when (if) you need it... That's the bloody point. If you have ALREADY teched to t4 you might as well stall for a t34 or an su85. The point of the su76 is if you CAN'T get t4 you can still have a mobile AT unit.

All putting it in t4 does is add 85 fu and 240mp to the cost of your emergency AT. I can't for the life of me see how that makes it more accessible...
20 Sep 2019, 18:47 PM
#171
avatar of Maret

Posts: 579

Su76 needs to hard counter lights and and to scare off mediums.

Currently it works as a mobile Zis, a zis that does less damage, has less pen and less surviability (400hp against 480hp only taking into the account the crew health and not the gun itself)

While it would be cool for the unit the act like a scott, the soviet roster already has the T70 for anti-infantry duties, while lacking terribly in any kind of stop gap for light vehicles, and we have to remember, the zis slow rate of fire makes it inneficient at killing lights.

Increase pen, increase hp to 580, and increase damage



T70 counter every LV besides puma. SU have all tools against LV, ptrs in that role the best tool, always hit and have good range.

Buff to pen, hp and damage could work, but i think it could ruin german gameplay too. If SU-76 become hardcounter against P4 in T3, it will be too tough. While be as AI support tool don't break balance so hard. It will be just 2-nd possible variant besides T-70.
OST have T2 in which have Halftruck and 222, both viable tools as AI, while 222 better in long distance due sight bonus, flameht give very potent and strong AI. The same will be in SU T3 - T-70 and SU-76.
20 Sep 2019, 20:00 PM
#172
avatar of Maret

Posts: 579

I think, if don't make full redesign, and keep su-76 as it is, it should get pen buff (200-190-180 vet0 to 240-230-220 with vet) with vet and accuracy buff, to become mediums harcounter. While save initial 120 dmg. It make su-76 constant in AT damage against mediums and also make from it some sort of "reactive" unit and somehow justify drawbacks from decision to buil it. It still need 6 shots to kill p4 on any vet.
20 Sep 2019, 21:18 PM
#173
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

That just means 2 can kill a p4 wicked fast and makes it not worth it to save for an su85 because you can kill quicker with nearly the same price and also have barrage.
20 Sep 2019, 21:32 PM
#174
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1680

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 20:00 PMMaret
I think, if don't make full redesign, and keep su-76 as it is, it should get pen buff (200-190-180 vet0 to 240-230-220 with vet) with vet and accuracy buff, to become mediums harcounter. ...

From poor man's SU85 to SU jackson clone (at T3) in only 1 post. Amazing. More than powercreep this is powerbuff. So no by all means. Why dont you try a more creative solution?

Also, i must tell you that Su76 is not a medium hardcounter, there is no need to clone the OST unit design to SU, because SU tech tree is radically different.

Stop. Cloning. Units.

21 Sep 2019, 02:11 AM
#175
avatar of aomsinzana

Posts: 284 | Subs: 1

SU-76 is cost-efficience.
But the reason why back tech for Zis gun is better optine because it will not delay T4 tech.

/tread.
rqd
21 Sep 2019, 03:05 AM
#176
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

SU-76 is cost-efficience.
But the reason why back tech for Zis gun is better optine because it will not delay T4 tech.

/tread.


Yes and that's the problem, current su-76 doesn't perform good enough to persuade players sacrificing their t4 timing to get it. Back teching for zis is always better even it cost 2x manpower.

Cons and penals struggle to fight grens and vgrens when the axis infantry has weapon upgrades. So as soon as you reach t3 you get a t-70 to help you deal with infantry and weapon teams, because it has anti-infantry power which soviet needs in mid game.

Su-76 can use a rework to be come a mobile indirect fire platform with ability to deal with light vehicles.

Rework the orginal barrage to let it fuction like scott in limited time and grants it smoke barrage, then it can help soviet infantry fight well-armed axis infantry. It shouldn't be counter to mediums so nerf the penertration to that of pumas.

If su-76 is to be reworked as a support vehicle, then it can create diversity in soviet t3 game play. Either use t-70 to chase and hunt down infantry and team weapons, or use su-76 to get indirect and smoke support and shut down light vehicle at range.

The problem of this unit is its role. When sov reach t3, it always urges for anti-infantry firepower.
21 Sep 2019, 11:14 AM
#177
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 137

Honestly the only thing the SU 76 really needs is a more useful Vet 1 ability such as reducing/removing the ammo cost on the barrage ability or literally any other Vet 1 ability.
21 Sep 2019, 11:16 AM
#178
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6419 | Subs: 1

Honestly the only thing the SU 76 really needs is a more useful Vet 1 ability such as reducing/removing the ammo cost on the barrage ability or literally any other Vet 1 ability.

I am not sure if you appreciate tracking. Not only it allow the SU-76 to auto spot for its barrage, it also provides mini map info so that one can barrage in the FOW.
21 Sep 2019, 14:13 PM
#179
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

Of the enemy wants to trade 120 fuel to kill a 75 fuel TD let them. If you don't want them to kill it support it.
22 Sep 2019, 16:04 PM
#180
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 137

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Sep 2019, 11:16 AMVipper

I am not sure if you appreciate tracking. Not only it allow the SU-76 to auto spot for its barrage, it also provides mini map info so that one can barrage in the FOW.


I am not a fan of the Vet 1 abilities for Soviet/Whermacht that are copied and pasted across multiple units.
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