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su76 need adjustments

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18 Sep 2019, 11:51 AM
#101
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3949 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:13 AMMaret

If you look in my table - SU-76 still misses to axis mediums and don't ahve 100% chance to pen, while Stug always hit and always pen. And if you told about such "unusual strat", you can do the same witk OKW or even with OST (spam of mg-42 with pgresn with shrecks). Or 222 spam. 2 222 can kill 1 t-70 if you have enough micro to block his back.
I repeat again, if you trying compare stug and su-76 - result ALWAYS will be on stug side. SU-76 NEED changing of it role, NOT to be "soviet stug". SU have it's own hardcounter TD in T4. No need make 2 when 1 is enough.

How well does the StuG fare in ranges 51-60? Just curious. Making a claim like "ALWAYS on the stugs side in an assymetic design is pretty ballsy is all. So if you could follow up with stats at those ranges I'd be greatly pleased.
18 Sep 2019, 11:53 AM
#102
avatar of Maret

Posts: 610

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:45 AMgbem
The fact that we rarely see the su76 in tourneys and regular gameplay sorta indicates that this unit may not be in the best spot... the real question here isnt "should the su76 recieve some changes" but rather "what kind of changes does the su76 need"... this is in contrast to the puma or the stug which are a bit more common than the SU76

Outright AT buffs will mark the return of su76 spam... prolly a bad idea

Id go with a cheaper barrage or rework barrage to an AI mode akin to sherman HE


My suggestions^

I tottaly against any sort of HEshells "like sherman have", it will too potent on so early timeframe. Su-76 must become LV hardcounter - have enough pen (like 140-110-100) and accuracy to deal with light vehicles while be very weak against mediums. Main role - AI support unit with some AT. Not subpar AT with some AI like now.
18 Sep 2019, 11:56 AM
#103
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

The stug/su76 comparison is really apples to oranges... they arent directly comparable as they both have different roles... the stug is meant to be dedicated AT while the su76 is supposed to be stopgap AT to transition to firesupport AI...

The su76 does the former well enough imo... what it lacks is the latter
rqd
18 Sep 2019, 12:02 PM
#104
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:45 AMgbem
The fact that we rarely see the su76 in tourneys and regular gameplay sorta indicates that this unit may not be in the best spot... the real question here isnt "should the su76 recieve some changes" but rather "what kind of changes does the su76 need"... this is in contrast to the puma or the stug which are a bit more common than the SU76

Outright AT buffs will mark the return of su76 spam... prolly a bad idea

Id go with a cheaper barrage or rework barrage to an AI mode akin to sherman HE


A rework on barrage is acceptable. Someone in this post have been trying to prove that su-76 is at its great spot of combining "decent" AT and "useful" barrage. I have to clearify that su-76 is not a good AT, like stug, which can hold off mediums nicely, and barrage with a recharge time of 80s can't really be handly like the one zis has.

Imo a unit rarely used is bad, like old pgrens and ostwind. The balance team has been always making underused units playable, they should really do something to su-76.
18 Sep 2019, 12:07 PM
#105
avatar of Maret

Posts: 610

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:56 AMgbem
The stug/su76 comparison is really apples to oranges... they arent directly comparable as they both have different roles... the stug is meant to be dedicated AT while the su76 is supposed to be stopgap AT to transition to firesupport AI...

The su76 does the former well enough imo... what it lacks is the latter

For LV counter SU always have much more cheaper variants (ptrs penals, or at-nades with zis). For medium counter - i already told it's not role of su-76. I don't even could imagine situation when in normal game SU player will be build first unit in T3 SU-76 not T-70. Sitting in T3 also meant that game for SU player will be almost ended. You can't counter P4 with SU-76, while any delay of T4 also delay your heavies and normal armor units. If you will lose your SU-76 you will be without ANY AT (if you have zis, you don't need su-76 at all) and need to build new one or make backteching to zis.

That why i want change role of SU-76. If it will be AI support unit - player will have 2 potent variants:

1. Aggressive, risky T-70.
2. More defense-style Su-76.

While now - no one in entire univierse don't say that you must build SU-76, if you have zis.
18 Sep 2019, 12:29 PM
#106
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3949 | Subs: 1

Your flawed thinking in that the su76 will hold off the enemy mediums all by itself, it won't. You need support. And it will do well in that regard. It's arguably better designed than the StuG because of that. It's part of your army not the whole damn thing... If you want a single 70 fuel TD to stop the enemy armour in its tracks you are sorely out of touch.

Also it's quite possible to not have a zis, not only possible but entirely meta.
18 Sep 2019, 12:30 PM
#107
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8271 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:13 AMMaret

If you look in my table - SU-76 still misses to axis mediums and don't ahve 100% chance to pen, while Stug always hit and always pen. And if you told about such "unusual strat", you can do the same witk OKW or even with OST (spam of mg-42 with pgresn with shrecks). Or 222 spam. 2 222 can kill 1 t-70 if you have enough micro to block his back.
I repeat again, if you trying compare stug and su-76 - result ALWAYS will be on stug side. SU-76 NEED changing of it role, NOT to be "soviet stug". SU have it's own hardcounter TD in T4. No need make 2 when 1 is enough.

Su-76 and Stug-G should have around the same accuracy at the same range.

While the Sherman have target size 23, PzIV/T-34/76 22 and Cromwell 20. I doubt that Stug-G has any meaningful advantage in accuracy over the SU-76. Even if it does its gone by vet 2 which SU-76 can reach allot faster.
(have you updated your numbers to the latest patch?)

And once more Stug is more expensive vehicles fight cheaper vehicles with the added utility of barrages and that makes SU-76 cost efficient by comparison.
18 Sep 2019, 12:35 PM
#108
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

As i said... the stug comparison really doesnt seem fair here as the stug is dedicated AT... imo the AT of the su76 isnt fine... but the AI portion needs a bit of help...

The question know is what would be best
1. A cheaper barrage
2. Some kv2 like firemode as suggested
3. A switch to HE shells?
4. Shells given more aoe to kill infantry
18 Sep 2019, 12:36 PM
#109
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8271 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 12:35 PMgbem
As i said... the stug comparison really doesnt seem fair here as the stug is dedicated AT... imo the AT of the su76 isnt fine... but the AI portion needs a bit of help...

The question know is what would be best
1. A cheaper barrage
2. Some kv2 like firemode as suggested
3. A switch to HE shells?
4. Shells given more aoe to kill infantry

The barrage has a cost close to grenade and improves with veterancy there is not need to be cheaper...
As long as T-70 is as good as it is in AI people will keep building over the SU-76 for AI.
18 Sep 2019, 12:40 PM
#110
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3949 | Subs: 1

"hey I know everyone hates fighting the pak howi but here's a more mobile, immune to small arms one that can also fight armour at 60 range"

Awful idea improving its barrage beyond reducing the cool down.
18 Sep 2019, 12:45 PM
#111
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

Well the su76 is underused and needs something to make it more appealing... soo what do u guys recommend?
18 Sep 2019, 12:48 PM
#112
avatar of Maret

Posts: 610

Your flawed thinking in that the su76 will hold off the enemy mediums all by itself, it won't. You need support. And it will do well in that regard. It's arguably better designed than the StuG because of that. It's part of your army not the whole damn thing... If you want a single 70 fuel TD to stop the enemy armour in its tracks you are sorely out of touch.

??? No my part army and support will be like similar to this:

With T3 1-st unit will be T-70 (approx. 9-10 minute of game) it will give me good field pressure and strong and potent AI, it also could fight against LV. 1 Zis gun to counter enemy medium. Than T4. I spend only 70 fuel on 1 unit in T3, have good field pressure and enough AT, before my T4 will be deployed. 1-st P4 will arrive approx. at 13-14 minute. In this time i almost have enough fuel on T4.

Then please told me how looks strat with SU-76???
Like this:
T3 deployed. 1-st unit t-70 (i will get field pressure, AT against LV and AI), 2-nd unit su-76 (i just delay my T4 on 75 fuel and spend MP that i could spend on zis-gun and backteching to zis and it will be approx. 13 minute). P4 arrive with my SU-76 or slightly later. Than you have: t-70 and su-76 against P4. You also have or penals with PTRS or cons with at-nades and T2. Who will be more aggressive OST player with P4 or you with t-70 and su-76 - open question. After 5-6 minutes will arrive 2-nd p4. In this time you could build T4, but not any T4 unit.

T3 deployed. 1-st unit SU-76. I don't have field pressure, i have barrage against static positions and hardcounter to any LV. German infantry have weapon upgrades. I can't deal with them by su-76 and have more bigger MP drain. In 13 minute will arrive P4, i have enough fuel to T4. I could have cons with at-nades and zis or penals with ptrs. BUT my cons will be suck against german infantry with weapon upgrades. I could make 007 con upgrdae for 25 fuel and 100MP and delay my T4.

As you see in any possible way you don't need su-76 AT ALL. I don't look on situation when you have T4 and build su-76 instead trying to save fuel on su-85.
18 Sep 2019, 12:57 PM
#113
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8271 | Subs: 1

"hey I know everyone hates fighting the pak howi but here's a more mobile, immune to small arms one that can also fight armour at 60 range"

Awful idea improving its barrage beyond reducing the cool down.

A factual correction the range is 80 and goes to close 90 with vet...
18 Sep 2019, 13:02 PM
#114
avatar of Maret

Posts: 610

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 12:57 PMVipper

A factual correction the range is 80 and goes to close 90 with vet...

Yup, but without autofire and barrage cost muni and SU-76 cost much more fuel than upgrade for pak howi. Beacuse if it will be close to pak howi we could saw strat with "soviet pak howi". But no one even dare to make it.
18 Sep 2019, 13:33 PM
#115
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8271 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 13:02 PMMaret

Yup, but without autofire and barrage cost muni and SU-76 cost much more fuel than upgrade for pak howi. Beacuse if it will be close to pak howi we could saw strat with "soviet pak howi". But no one even dare to make it.

I did not make any comparison with pack howitzer I simply corrected a stat. PLS do not quote me to respond with thing that irrelevant to my post because it creates the wrong impression. (In this case you can quote darkarmadilo and not me)
18 Sep 2019, 13:48 PM
#116
avatar of Maret

Posts: 610

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 13:33 PMVipper

I did not make any comparison with pack howitzer I simply corrected a stat. PLS do not quote me to respond with thing that irrelevant to my post because it creates the wrong impression. (In this case you can quote darkarmadilo and not me)


Ok, my fault, will try to keep myself in edges of good manners.

But let's return to possible ways of redesign of su-76:

IMHO


This will kill 2 birds in 1 stone. SU could get more potent AI support tool, also it will give free barrage to SU-76, but with restrictions (in fact, i like when good abilities have drawback to player, you always should valueing situation and reward with drawbacks from your actions). While unmoved SU-76 with penalty to movement after ability will off, will be good target for any sorts of diving or off-map abilities. Reduced penetration makes su-76 effective only against LV and even massed SU-76 will be very poor choice against mediums.
Problem with su-76 that it don't get to player field pressure in timeframe when german infantry already have upgrades. While T-70 have it. If SU-76 will be AI support tool it will give this field pressure, but in other way than T-70.
18 Sep 2019, 14:07 PM
#117
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3949 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 12:48 PMMaret

??? No my part army and support will be like similar to this:

With T3 1-st unit will be T-70 (approx. 9-10 minute of game) it will give me good field pressure and strong and potent AI, it also could fight against LV. 1 Zis gun to counter enemy medium. Than T4. I spend only 70 fuel on 1 unit in T3, have good field pressure and enough AT, before my T4 will be deployed. 1-st P4 will arrive approx. at 13-14 minute. In this time i almost have enough fuel on T4.

Then please told me how looks strat with SU-76???
Like this:
T3 deployed. 1-st unit t-70 (i will get field pressure, AT against LV and AI), 2-nd unit su-76 (i just delay my T4 on 75 fuel and spend MP that i could spend on zis-gun and backteching to zis and it will be approx. 13 minute). P4 arrive with my SU-76 or slightly later. Than you have: t-70 and su-76 against P4. You also have or penals with PTRS or cons with at-nades and T2. Who will be more aggressive OST player with P4 or you with t-70 and su-76 - open question. After 5-6 minutes will arrive 2-nd p4. In this time you could build T4, but not any T4 unit.

T3 deployed. 1-st unit SU-76. I don't have field pressure, i have barrage against static positions and hardcounter to any LV. German infantry have weapon upgrades. I can't deal with them by su-76 and have more bigger MP drain. In 13 minute will arrive P4, i have enough fuel to T4. I could have cons with at-nades and zis or penals with ptrs. BUT my cons will be suck against german infantry with weapon upgrades. I could make 007 con upgrdae for 25 fuel and 100MP and delay my T4.

As you see in any possible way you don't need su-76 AT ALL. I don't look on situation when you have T4 and build su-76 instead trying to save fuel on su-85.

You build it if you NEED it. It's STOP GAP at, EMERGENCY at. It's there because otherwise your only AT vehicle is hundreds of fuel away. If you get stalled out in t3 and went t1 you might want something that can help you plink away at the enemy tanks to keep them from murdering your infantry. There is no strat focused on them being the star of your army because that's not their job. You are trying to use them wrong and complaining that they arnt function right in that role.
If you go T70 and hit a teller mine and don't get your value out of it and the enemy pushes back you might not be able to get to t4 in time and with enough free resources to be able to repel enemy armour. If you get it early and they hold out for something bigger you can make use of the barrage to generate value.
It's not an always build, but it's not a never build either.you are expecting far too much from such a cheap unit..


@vipper, true but it can only engage AMROUR out to 60 range. It's barrage is much further but less reliable as an AT element
18 Sep 2019, 14:27 PM
#118
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8271 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 13:48 PMMaret

Ok, my fault, will try to keep myself in edges of good manners.
...

It is ok, no problem I am pretty sure you did not do with ill intentions. I simply pointed out it because some other users twist has been posted allot.
18 Sep 2019, 15:04 PM
#119
avatar of Maret

Posts: 610


You build it if you NEED it. It's STOP GAP at, EMERGENCY at. It's there because otherwise your only AT vehicle is hundreds of fuel away. If you get stalled out in t3 and went t1 you might want something that can help you plink away at the enemy tanks to keep them from murdering your infantry. There is no strat focused on them being the star of your army because that's not their job. You are trying to use them wrong and complaining that they arnt function right in that role.
If you go T70 and hit a teller mine and don't get your value out of it and the enemy pushes back you might not be able to get to t4 in time and with enough free resources to be able to repel enemy armour. If you get it early and they hold out for something bigger you can make use of the barrage to generate value.
It's not an always build, but it's not a never build either.you are expecting far too much from such a cheap unit..

SU-76 Emergency AT? No, hell no. What means "emergency"? Something that could fast and radically resolve problem. Fire axe, fire distinguisher, adrenaline for heart stopping and e.t.c. I know unit that could work as "emergency" - pgrens with shreck, you lost good AI, but get very strong AT; penals ptrs is "emergency" AT against LV. They could give you "emergency" AT, while su-76 it's just homeopathy in it timeframe - while you need to go and show yourself to doctor, you just drink this homeopathic "pills". The longer you drink it, the worse it will be with time. It will end up surgery table for you.
I saw many games of pros. And they almost never build su-76, even in most desperate situations - backteching to zis. Or just zis if you have T2. T2 cost only 10 fuel, you will save 65 fuel, but need 320+240=560 MP for 1-st zis. Without T4 in current patch, you even couldn't achieve heavy. SU-76 need changing of role.





18 Sep 2019, 15:26 PM
#120
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 414

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 15:04 PMMaret

SU-76 Emergency AT? No, hell no. What means "emergency"? Something that could fast and radically resolve problem. Fire axe, fire distinguisher, adrenaline for heart stopping and e.t.c.



Emergency like emergency food, NOT like a medical emergency. Basically it's something cheap that is better than nothing.

The su76 does fine at zoning out axis mediums as long as you have some infantry based at support like cons with AT nade. But this is the same for most other TDs too.
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