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russian armor

The maxim vs mg42 argument

17 Sep 2019, 10:01 AM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13272 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 09:08 AMgbem


im not attacking anyone... its just a blanket term to cover those with axis biases

Well it is provoking and inflammatory. There is no need for name calling unless you would like people referring to you as "allied fan boy" or "Sovietboo" or a similar term.
17 Sep 2019, 18:50 PM
#22
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


I attempted to calculate the average suppression of each Machine Gun using the formula Suppression Amount x Rate of Fire Mid x Accuracy Mid. If anyone has one that's better than that, let me know because that formula did not give the correct DPS values that were on the chart, but I think it's still indicative of which number is higher. So here's the higher numbers:



I'm not sure how to incorporate it, but incremental accuracy/suppression or whatever, has an effect on the amount of suppression a unit is delivering.

For ex:
Testing MG42 suppression.
-Units behind heavy cover.
-Range 20.
-Against 4, 5, 6, 7 model squads.

Mg42 won't suppress after 6 burst (one mag) 4/5 model squads. At 6 burst it can suppress a 6 model and at 5 burst, a 7 model squad.

Alternative, firing at 7 unique 1 model squads, doesn't provide the same level of suppression. Requiring 15 burst before suppressing a single model.
17 Sep 2019, 19:08 PM
#23
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

That been said, i just realised that it's 6 years and we still don't know how suppression really works.
17 Sep 2019, 19:25 PM
#24
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

That been said, i just realised that it's 6 years and we still don't know how suppression really works.

Big relic is supressing that info
17 Sep 2019, 19:29 PM
#25
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Big relic is supressing that info


Not wanting to bully them but they probably don't even know themselves.

Cruzz doesn't know it, Mr Smith doesn't know it. We just have speculations about how it really works.


I'm scratching my head at the moment about the 1 model x 7 squads test for example.
17 Sep 2019, 19:53 PM
#26
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

Is it possible that each model contributes to the whole squad's suppression?

So if you shoot at a 3 model squad it is likely that all 3 get "suppression points", though perhaps not the same quantity across them?

Also, what about making a custom unit that shoots a single shot that builds up a set amount of suppression (like say a non-damaging sniper) to test that out?

HMGs spread bullets around so more than 1 model can be "getting shot at", where-as with something like a sniper it's only 1 model for sure.
17 Sep 2019, 20:23 PM
#27
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928



MG34 looking pretty gud, especially with that quick & strong vet it gets now. :megusta:

Can you add Bofors, for completion sake?

Sure, I'll also revise the numbers with updated patch notes for the Bofers and Vickers as well, since I didn't do that the first time.

Single Target / Area / Radius / Weapon
0.149040 | 0.1192320 | 10 - DShK
0.148500 | 0.1188000 | 13 - M2 Browning
0.138000 | 0.0000000 | 00 - Bofors Gun (New)*
0.110400 | 0.0883200 | 15 - Bofors Gun (Old)
0.087500 | 0.0700000 | 13 - MG 34
0.086400 | 0.06912‬00 | 13 - MG 42
0.065280 | 0.0512448 | 13 - Vickers (New)
0.064056 | 0.0512448 | 13 - Vickers (Old)
0.046800 | 0.0468000 | 15 - Maxim

This isn't completely factual, just trying to get an idea. *I couldn't do the new Bofors because the numbers and wording on the patch notes is not at all similar to what the stats website says.



I'm not sure how to incorporate it, but incremental accuracy/suppression or whatever, has an effect on the amount of suppression a unit is delivering.

For ex:
Testing MG42 suppression.
-Units behind heavy cover.
-Range 20.
-Against 4, 5, 6, 7 model squads.

Mg42 won't suppress after 6 burst (one mag) 4/5 model squads. At 6 burst it can suppress a 6 model and at 5 burst, a 7 model squad.

Alternative, firing at 7 unique 1 model squads, doesn't provide the same level of suppression. Requiring 15 burst before suppressing a single model.

Yeah that's why I just decided to stick to single target at mid range (22 - 27 depending on the gun). For the heck of it I added area suppression as well, turns out it's actually consistent enough that all the guns still rank in the same order!


That been said, i just realised that it's 6 years and we still don't know how suppression really works.

:lol:
18 Sep 2019, 03:11 AM
#28
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 883

I wouldn't have made my previous thread had I saw this one first.

Anyway, HMG42 spam is probably 10x worse than the Maxim spam. The damn thing is only 260 MP AND its available right away AND its got the widest arc AND it's got the most suppression AND it's got the best AP abilities behind vet AND it doesn't take much to vet. Now inspite of all that I don't think it should be nerfed but no way in hell should it be a starting T0 unit.

The HMG42 is, was, and always will be a permanent f**king cancer on the a** of this game. But lets nerf the Bofors just because.
18 Sep 2019, 05:54 AM
#29
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 03:11 AMCODGUY
I wouldn't have made my previous thread had I saw this one first.

Anyway, HMG42 spam is probably 10x worse than the Maxim spam. The damn thing is only 260 MP AND its available right away AND its got the widest arc AND it's got the most suppression AND it's got the best AP abilities behind vet AND it doesn't take much to vet. Now inspite of all that I don't think it should be nerfed but no way in hell should it be a starting T0 unit.

The HMG42 is, was, and always will be a permanent f**king cancer on the a** of this game. But lets nerf the Bofors just because.


Dog, you need a chill pill.

If you can’t find a chill pill then take one of those chill strips.

Stick it on your tongue.

Let it dissolve.

Chill.


MG42’s are a core part of how the game is balanced since day one of the vCoH beta. It’s supposed to be better, that’s the whole point. Axis sets up and supports the MG42 while Allies scout, flank and attack. Allied MGs can’t be as good unless you let Axis infantry be as good. Then you end up with homogenization and factions like OKW that struggle to remain balanced and playable.

The game is in a really good spot right now and doesn’t need massive changes to the HMG dynamic. Minor adjustments to the Maxim would be fine but are honestly not necessary for the game to be balanced and fun. (US vCoH M1917A1 .30 cal MGs were basically never used but vCoH was still, and still is, balanced and fun.)



18 Sep 2019, 06:24 AM
#30
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2019, 10:11 AMgbem


Dumbasses that play axis only


I play all factions. Here is how I would rank the MGs out of 10

10/10 .50 cal
Half the set up time of other MGs, instant pack up, AP rounds, ~instant suppression

8/10 Mg42
~instant suppression, AP rounds, Bad DPS

7/10 Dushka
Instant pack up, AP rounds, ~instant suppression
Small arc

6/10 Vickers
1 burst suppression, good DPS

4/10 Maxim
1 burst suppression, instant pack up, terrible DPS
Death loop
18 Sep 2019, 06:36 AM
#31
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1



I play all factions. Here is how I would rank the MGs out of 10

10/10 .50 cal
Half the set up time of other MGs, instant pack up, AP rounds, ~instant suppression

8/10 Mg42
~instant suppression, AP rounds, Bad DPS

7/10 Dushka
Instant pack up, AP rounds, ~instant suppression
Small arc

6/10 Vickers
1 burst suppression, good DPS

4/10 Maxim
1 burst suppression, instant pack up, terrible DPS
Death loop


DPS-wise it's actually:

DHSK>Vickers>Maxim/MG42 (roughly the same, MG42 does more on close, Maxim more on mid, equal at far)>50 cal>MG34
18 Sep 2019, 10:36 AM
#32
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979




MG42’s are a core part of how the game is balanced since day one of the vCoH beta. It’s supposed to be better, that’s the whole point. Axis sets up and supports the MG42 while Allies scout, flank and attack. Allied MGs can’t be as good unless you let Axis infantry be as good. Then you end up with homogenization and factions like OKW that struggle to remain balanced and playable.

The game is in a really good spot right now and doesn’t need massive changes to the HMG dynamic. Minor adjustments to the Maxim would be fine but are honestly not necessary for the game to be balanced and fun. (US vCoH M1917A1 .30 cal MGs were basically never used but vCoH was still, and still is, balanced and fun.)



Not exactly true in the soviet vs wehrmacht matchup... grens and conscripts are fairly even in the matchup but the mg42 far outclasses the maxim....

If we were to make your interpretation correct then conscripts require buffa to be "superior" to grenadiers as you claimed...

Anyways the real best way to fix this is just to buff the maxim to hmg42 levels of viability and be done with it... unless you are going to claim that conscripts somehow outclass grenadiers...
18 Sep 2019, 12:51 PM
#33
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 10:36 AMgbem


Not exactly true in the soviet vs wehrmacht matchup... grens and conscripts are fairly even in the matchup but the mg42 far outclasses the maxim....

If we were to make your interpretation correct then conscripts require buffa to be "superior" to grenadiers as you claimed...

Anyways the real best way to fix this is just to buff the maxim to hmg42 levels of viability and be done with it... unless you are going to claim that conscripts somehow outclass grenadiers...


Cons do best Grens at close range. Grens need the MG42 to keep the Cons back so they can’t close the distance. Soviets also have Penals, which are definitely better than Grens.

My point was also that the game was originally balanced that way. Back in the day Cons and Grens were almost identical except Grens had a 1.5 armor value and cost 30 to reinforce vs Cons costing 20 to reinforce. Both units were effectively the same at all ranges and traded evenly at a ratio of 2 Gren models to 3 Con models.

Go even further back to vCoH and the MG42 was still the cornerstone of the games asymmetrical design. MG42 plus Volks and Grens vs Riflemen where Riflemen best Volks and Grens up close and the Axis needed the MG42 to keep the Riflemen away.

Today, things are balanced differently, but the core concept that the MG42 is the cornerstone of Axis infantry play remains.
18 Sep 2019, 17:47 PM
#34
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Cons do best Grens at close range. Grens need the MG42 to keep the Cons back so they can’t close the distance. Soviets also have Penals, which are definitely better than Grens.

My point was also that the game was originally balanced that way. Back in the day Cons and Grens were almost identical except Grens had a 1.5 armor value and cost 30 to reinforce vs Cons costing 20 to reinforce. Both units were effectively the same at all ranges and traded evenly at a ratio of 2 Gren models to 3 Con models.

Go even further back to vCoH and the MG42 was still the cornerstone of the games asymmetrical design. MG42 plus Volks and Grens vs Riflemen where Riflemen best Volks and Grens up close and the Axis needed the MG42 to keep the Riflemen away.

Today, things are balanced differently, but the core concept that the MG42 is the cornerstone of Axis infantry play remains.


Conscripts seem well balanced against grens in an opening...cons win at close range while grens win at long range... and an grens get riflenades for long range engagements... cons get ooraah and molly to close the gap...

and yes i agree penals exist... but note that a T2 core build is very unlikely to have penals in it
18 Sep 2019, 17:49 PM
#35
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

18 Sep 2019, 17:57 PM
#36
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 778


I attempted to calculate the average suppression of each Machine Gun using the formula Suppression Amount x Rate of Fire Mid x Accuracy Mid. If anyone has one that's better than that, let me know because that formula did not give the correct DPS values that were on the chart, but I think it's still indicative of which number is higher. So here's the higher numbers:

0.14904 - DShK
0.1485 - M2 Browning
0.0875 - MG 34
0.0864 - MG 42
0.064056 - Vickers
0.0468 - Maxim


While I applaud your efforts, another major factor is going to be burst duration, which doesn't look to be a factor here. ROF is only half the story, as none of the MGs fire continuously (though the maxim can come close in that one regard)
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