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Relief Infantry and Rapid Consription need rework?

15 Sep 2019, 09:51 AM
#1
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 316

I think although Soviet Rapid Consription is little better than Relief Infantry because Soviet more easily lost infantry and consript can refinement any squad,but both ability is not good,they both huge munitions cost and short time and uncontrolled
So,how about rework them like OKW previous FireSturm Doc when lost unit will return some manpower?(I forgot ability name)
15 Sep 2019, 10:41 AM
#2
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 782 | Subs: 4


I agree. Hard to use ability.
End up simply avoiding it.
15 Sep 2019, 10:42 AM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6417 | Subs: 1

I would rather have them return squad that can merge but not reinforce. The could use the VG/Conscripts models/assets.

That would be a way to deliver fresh troops to front-line without getting stuck with unwanted squads.
15 Sep 2019, 11:35 AM
#4
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 316

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2019, 10:42 AMVipper
I would rather have them return squad that can merge but not reinforce. The could use the VG/Conscripts models/assets.

That would be a way to deliver fresh troops to front-line without getting stuck with unwanted squads.

Whatever rework or replace,will better than now……
15 Sep 2019, 15:53 PM
#5
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2019, 10:42 AMVipper
I would rather have them return squad that can merge but not reinforce. The could use the VG/Conscripts models/assets.

That would be a way to deliver fresh troops to front-line without getting stuck with unwanted squads.


I'd love nothing more than Merging and perhaps even repairing, Panzerbüsche 39 upgraded Osttruppen squad call in but I don't think what you're suggesting is realistic.

And Conscripts there's nothing more to do with since they get weapon upgrades and support abilities through a lot of doctrines.

My opinion is that they're better off just being replaced by entirely different things to be honest.

Simplest thing for the Ostheer is the standard Osttruppen call in, not sure about the Soviets tho.
15 Sep 2019, 16:16 PM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6417 | Subs: 1



I'd love nothing more than Merging and perhaps even repairing, Panzerbüsche 39 upgraded Osttruppen squad call in but I don't think what you're suggesting is realistic.

And Conscripts there's nothing more to do with since they get weapon upgrades and support abilities through a lot of doctrines.

My opinion is that they're better off just being replaced by entirely different things to be honest.

Simplest thing for the Ostheer is the standard Osttruppen call in, not sure about the Soviets tho.

I was probably not clear enough:

The ability instead of returning normal ostturppen and normal conscripts it would return a new type of squad that would be able to merge but nor reinforce. They could use Conscript/VG models with target size of 1.


The idea behind it is that these troops would be used to reinforce front-line troops, one could even add a bit of heal into merging, without actually getting more normal squads.
15 Sep 2019, 17:16 PM
#7
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1307

Both abilities used to be okay. I didn't use Rapid Conscription much because I didn't like Cons. Relief infantry used to be too good, especially in small games. Use it a couple times and then you would get pop-capped with infantry. Then it made sense just to YOLO a mass of infantry into your opponent with the ability active since all it cost was some munitions. Then people complained and they were over nerfed. Now you can use the ability and it might not return anything.

I could understand some of the nerf to Osttruppen since they have the non-doc LMG's and are okay late game but even its nerf was overdone. Lowering the cost and partially reverting the nerfs would be fine. I don't think at this point in the game that it would make sense to do some huge overhaul.

I think something simple would work best, like giving you back as many Osttruppen as you lose in total infantry during the time the ability is active. Models lost on weapons teams should count also. If you lose 9 total models, you get 1 full Osttruppen squad and a half squad with 3 models. It should work the same for Cons.

15 Sep 2019, 17:17 PM
#8
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 110

Instead of going for a new type of squad meant for merging, that would probably bring up a dozen bug and exploits, what about simply replacing them with ostruppen/conscript reserves? It would be reworked such that one of the two squads would always arrive with AT weaponry, panzerbüchse and ptrs.
15 Sep 2019, 18:41 PM
#9
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 798

Just give more active time, sometimes the ability ends before you even manage to get one squad back.
15 Sep 2019, 18:50 PM
#10
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 500

I like the concept of these abilities, but I don't think that they fit very well into the current game.
I would prefer an easy solution by replacing it with direct call ins of Osttruppen and AT Conscripts/Partisans (AT or SMG), respectively.
Vippers idea is interesting but might cause too many issues regarding exploits, balance and bugs.
15 Sep 2019, 18:50 PM
#11
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2019, 16:16 PMVipper

I was probably not clear enough:

The ability instead of returning normal ostturppen and normal conscripts it would return a new type of squad that would be able to merge but nor reinforce. They could use Conscript/VG models with target size of 1.


The idea behind it is that these troops would be used to reinforce front-line troops, one could even add a bit of heal into merging, without actually getting more normal squads.


I'm sorry but I'm against cannon fodder units (such as the Conscripts as their description states) and I don't think they fit in a game's theme of preserving squads because of their veterancy.

A player should be encouraged to call in units that bring value to the battlefield and for which said player can try to keep them alive for, not use them as simple, expandable cannon fodder to simply throw in the meat grinder without a care in the world.

That is what's the problem with these abilities in the first place, you will most likely not get in as severe in an engagement to lose enough models for the max amount of squads to get out of the ability in order to be effective and are basically encouraged to lose squads if needed which doesn't make sense to me, especially taking into account that you're probably losing Pioneer, Grenadier and Panzergrenadier models, which are higher value than Osttruppen, for an Osttruppen squad without much utility, because Osttruppen rely on their trenches and doctrines to give them the tools in order to be effective.

Instead of going for a new type of squad meant for merging, that would probably bring up a dozen bug and exploits, what about simply replacing them with ostruppen/conscript reserves? It would be reworked such that one of the two squads would always arrive with AT weaponry, panzerbüchse and ptrs.


The Soviet Conscripts already have merging and if it was so full of bugs and exploitable why hasn't it been removed until now? If the Soviets have it then somebody else can probably have it as a doctrinal ability, I don't see anything wrong with that.

And they also tried to remove the RNG involved in call in squads, that's why you don't see it with the Osttruppen Reserves and Partisans anymore bringing in shrecks and having varied amount of veterancy (not for those units specifically but it was a thing a long time ago for other Armies and their units).

15 Sep 2019, 19:20 PM
#12
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 110


The Soviet Conscripts already have merging and if it was so full of bugs and exploitable why hasn't it been removed until now? If the Soviets have it then somebody else can probably have it as a doctrinal ability, I don't see anything wrong with that.

And they also tried to remove the RNG involved in call in squads, that's why you don't see it with the Osttruppen Reserves and Partisans anymore bringing in shrecks and having varied amount of veterancy (not for those units specifically but it was a thing a long time ago for other Armies and their units).



Yes, conscripts merge is working fine (most of the times, some issue I heard when merging with the reworked assault guards), but introducing a new wehrmacht unit... well... I don't know modding, but looking at the weird bugs that came up for seemingly simple additions is a bit concerning, like look at how broken the royal engineers were, all due to the deconstruct ability.

Yes, rng was for those abilities removed, and I think it's good. What I meant is that one of the two squads would always have AT equipment, while the other one never (or always have AI equipment, like an lmg)
15 Sep 2019, 21:45 PM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6417 | Subs: 1



I'm sorry but I'm against cannon fodder units (such as the Conscripts as their description states) and I don't think they fit in a game's theme of preserving squads because of their veterancy.
....

You seem to have missed the point of these units. These unit would not have to role of cannon fodder but the role of reinforcing squads that have suffer casualties via merge.
16 Sep 2019, 01:56 AM
#14
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 385

This is the rework I posted in September:

Idea for relief infantry rework:

Instead of forcing you to get your units killed, make it so they can recuperate from any losses that occur.
Releases 2 4-man relief squads that can merge but cannot reinforce or capture points. Also have VERY crap DPS.

have the relief infantry squads retreat off the map at the abilitie’s end


This would add more skill to the ability, instead of throwing your units foreward to die you have to position the relief squads correctly& time your Assault well
16 Sep 2019, 11:14 AM
#15
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2019, 21:45 PMVipper

You seem to have missed the point of these units. These unit would not have to role of cannon fodder but the role of reinforcing squads that have suffer casualties via merge.


Wouldn't it be easier to have something like recoup losses then and just have it as a timed ability that allows you to reinforce units for cheaper rather than involving a larger amount of micro?

Also it doesn't matter what you or I think, you have an idea and you implement it, right? But people have different ideas and they are bound to use them as cheap and expandable troops since they will probably have rifles at the least and be a 6 man squad and will probably also complain that they are lacking.

So again, sorely have a unit meant to merge and nothing else seems like a waste of potential and a commander slot, not to mention an ability.
16 Sep 2019, 11:20 AM
#16
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

Festung Support with 0 CP Osttruppen would actually be a pretty fun doctrine to use.
16 Sep 2019, 11:29 AM
#17
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I think this should be a default ability feature for Both SU and WEHR.

Since both factions do suffer substantial model losses in game due to different key factors.



16 Sep 2019, 11:30 AM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6417 | Subs: 1



Wouldn't it be easier to have something like recoup losses then and just have it as a timed ability that allows you to reinforce units for cheaper rather than involving a larger amount of micro?

Also it doesn't matter what you or I think, you have an idea and you implement it, right? But people have different ideas and they are bound to use them as cheap and expandable troops since they will probably have rifles at the least and be a 6 man squad and will probably also complain that they are lacking.

So again, sorely have a unit meant to merge and nothing else seems like a waste of potential and a commander slot, not to mention an ability.

I doubt people use recoup loses, and recoup loses does no reinforce your troops in the battle field. This ability would.
16 Sep 2019, 14:04 PM
#19
avatar of Partisanship

Posts: 207

Weird concept, but maybe have Rapid conscription/relief infantry work as an indirect bonus rather than straight up free units?

Specifically, the idea I had in mind was that if any infantry (not crews) gets reinforced at the headquarter (and HQ only) will have indefinite sprint until they arrive at any of the frontline sectors (as in any sector of the map that is attached to an opponent's captured sector). That way, the idea of fast reinforcement is still there, but works mechanically as allowing you to get retreating squads back in action.
Thus achieving
A) The CoH tradition of preserving units rather than throwing them away
B) Thematicall appropriate effect without upsetting balance

The only thing I can think of is how that may be abused. How? Can't say, but there's probably something like bugs, et cetera if not properly implemented.

Edit: Forgot to add that this is meant to become a passive rather than active. If it was active, I wouldn't know what to put on duration or cost.
16 Sep 2019, 15:01 PM
#20
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 385

Weird concept, but maybe have Rapid conscription/relief infantry work as an indirect bonus rather than straight up free units?

Specifically, the idea I had in mind was that if any infantry (not crews) gets reinforced at the headquarter (and HQ only) will have indefinite sprint until they arrive at any of the frontline sectors (as in any sector of the map that is attached to an opponent's captured sector). That way, the idea of fast reinforcement is still there, but works mechanically as allowing you to get retreating squads back in action.
Thus achieving
A) The CoH tradition of preserving units rather than throwing them away
B) Thematicall appropriate effect without upsetting balance

The only thing I can think of is how that may be abused. How? Can't say, but there's probably something like bugs, et cetera if not properly implemented.

Edit: Forgot to add that this is meant to become a passive rather than active. If it was active, I wouldn't know what to put on duration or cost.


60 munitions - reinforce and repair times reduced and infantry sprint while out of combat. 30s duration
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