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State of the Kingtiger

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18 Sep 2019, 19:19 PM
#121
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 24


...you do realise that all heavy tank AOE was recently (as in two weeks ago) completely changed? Their one shot kill radius was reduced but their health damage radius was increased, along with an increase in the chance to hit squads, so that they will deal more consistent damage to infantry instead of being RNG wipe-or-miss fests.

The Tiger II got pretty much the best AOE out of those changes, as shown above, although it's only slightly ahead of the IS-2 and Pershing.



Why do you insist the rate of fire is shitty? The reload is really good for the damage it does compared to most/all other vehicles. 6.25s is a really good reload. A Panzer IV has (160dmg) has 5.75s. The Pershing (160dmg) has 6.75s. The IS-2 (160dmg) has 6.65s. The Tiger has (160dmg) has 5.25s.
There is absolutely no reason to think the Tiger II's reload is "shitty". It's above most other heavy tanks, only second to the Tiger I by 1s, but it deals 50% more damage per shot. The only downside to its reload is that it doesn't get a veterancy reload bonus until vet 5 while most other tanks get it at vet 3.



I have to agree about this part. The Kt seems pretty good against infantry and at guns.
In general i think a tank needs 3 things to perform good. a, firepower (dpm and range), b, the ability to tank (Hp and armor) and mobility.

a,The firepower of the Kt vs infantry is pretty good. The range is enough to zone infantry quite effective. The range is mediocre vs tanks (in combination with the speed). The dmg is neat, doesnt really matter vs targets below 800 Hp though. The penetration is pretty bad for such a costly unit. I can understand that this gets on a problematic lvl with heat shells. His reaload is pretty good too.

b, His ability to tank/soak dmg is great. The stats seem pretty good on their on (without looking at range and speed).

c, This is the greatest problem. Without the speed from his vet 3 ability it cant really chase tanks down. I understand that its survivability gets balanced through this. Jackson and su85 can fight a kt pretty effective and kite him cause of the speed advantage. Ofc a tank destroyer should counter an heavy tank, but maybe the pen vet boni is too good.
some other points: its easier to get a pershing tiger ace or tiger 1 than a kt. so its easier to rush this vehicles in 2vs2/ 1vs1. The king tiger would probably work better in a doc and bound to t4.


My conclusion: I would nerf the dmg back to 160 or 200 and adjust his anti infantry to the current lvl and buff his penetration to ~250-270. He wont fight 640hp td anyway, so the penetration helps vs heavy tanks. Maybe buff his range to 50 and/or buff his speed. His acceleration can stay the same. At the moment i would rather go for a fast command tiger on narrow maps or a p4 into jagdtiger on maps like rails and metal. The cost and time invested to get the first kt just seems off compared to pershing, command tiger and is2. Maybe a cost reduction could work too.

18 Sep 2019, 19:30 PM
#122
avatar of Maret

Posts: 581

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 19:19 PMGeblobt


My conclusion: I would nerf the dmg back to 160 or 200 and adjust his anti infantry to the current lvl and buff his penetration to ~250-270. He wont fight 640hp td anyway, so the penetration helps vs heavy tanks. Maybe buff his range to 50 and/or buff his speed. His acceleration can stay the same. At the moment i would rather go for a fast command tiger on narrow maps or a p4 into jagdtiger on maps like rails and metal. The cost and time invested to get the first kt just seems off compared to pershing, command tiger and is2. Maybe a cost reduction could work too.


Buff it's hull mg like for t-34/76. It will give constant AI (it almost all time is turn frontal to enemy).
19 Sep 2019, 08:16 AM
#123
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890


...you do realise that all heavy tank AOE was recently (as in two weeks ago) completely changed? Their one shot kill radius was reduced but their health damage radius was increased, along with an increase in the chance to hit squads, so that they will deal more consistent damage to infantry instead of being RNG wipe-or-miss fests.

The Tiger II got pretty much the best AOE out of those changes, as shown above, although it's only slightly ahead of the IS-2 and Pershing.



Why do you insist the rate of fire is shitty? The reload is really good for the damage it does compared to most/all other vehicles. 6.25s is a really good reload. A Panzer IV has (160dmg) has 5.75s. The Pershing (160dmg) has 6.75s. The IS-2 (160dmg) has 6.65s. The Tiger has (160dmg) has 5.25s.
There is absolutely no reason to think the Tiger II's reload is "shitty". It's above most other heavy tanks, only second to the Tiger I by 1s, but it deals 50% more damage per shot. The only downside to its reload is that it doesn't get a veterancy reload bonus until vet 5 while most other tanks get it at vet 3.

Again, its AOE and scatter got a major buff in the recent patch, and now it generally forces squads to retreat in ~2 shots. It no longer sucks at fighting infantry.



Not able to absorb damage? It has 375 armor (highest in the game for heavy tanks shared with IS-2, but the IS-2 has less health) AND 1280hp (highest in the game for heavy tanks shared with Tiger Ace, but the Tiger Ace has less armor). It is literally the most durable tank in the game right now.


Your opinion on the Tiger II seems to be pretty much entirely based on misinformation and misconception.


Yes ofc i talk about post patch. Just had a game with KT missing 3 shots in row when stationary against clumped up squads behind sandbags and KT was behind them. That is the most optimal position to fire from and still miss after miss (I didn't hit world objects). That was vs a shitty player who let my KT just keep firing at them for almost 20 seconds which would never happen vs a decent player. And still the KT didn't even manage to do anything.

KT fire rate sucks not only because of its reload but its ready aim time. And if it ever loses sight of a unit due to its long ready aim time it has to rotate its slow ass turret again. It just sucks.

It's armor doesn't matter since its slow as fuck and its the easiest unit in the game to flank. I rather take less health for pershing speed anyday. Not so much a King 'Tiger' but more like King of Engine Damage Trashcan.
19 Sep 2019, 15:10 PM
#124
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 149

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Sep 2019, 08:16 AMspajn


Yes ofc i talk about post patch. Just had a game with KT missing 3 shots in row when stationary against clumped up squads behind sandbags and KT was behind them. That is the most optimal position to fire from and still miss after miss (I didn't hit world objects). That was vs a shitty player who let my KT just keep firing at them for almost 20 seconds which would never happen vs a decent player. And still the KT didn't even manage to do anything.

KT fire rate sucks not only because of its reload but its ready aim time. And if it ever loses sight of a unit due to its long ready aim time it has to rotate its slow ass turret again. It just sucks.

It's armor doesn't matter since its slow as fuck and its the easiest unit in the game to flank. I rather take less health for pershing speed anyday. Not so much a King 'Tiger' but more like King of Engine Damage Trashcan.


Sanders has pretty thoroughly dismantled your perspective on this unit based on complete anecdotes and a tightrope video. Please, just stop. KT is fine, you act like its the only vehicle you can build.
19 Sep 2019, 16:25 PM
#125
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3268 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Sep 2019, 08:16 AMspajn


Yes ofc i talk about post patch. Just had a game with KT missing 3 shots in row when stationary against clumped up squads behind sandbags and KT was behind them. That is the most optimal position to fire from and still miss after miss (I didn't hit world objects). That was vs a shitty player who let my KT just keep firing at them for almost 20 seconds which would never happen vs a decent player. And still the KT didn't even manage to do anything.

KT fire rate sucks not only because of its reload but its ready aim time. And if it ever loses sight of a unit due to its long ready aim time it has to rotate its slow ass turret again. It just sucks.

It's armor doesn't matter since its slow as fuck and its the easiest unit in the game to flank. I rather take less health for pershing speed anyday. Not so much a King 'Tiger' but more like King of Engine Damage Trashcan.


RNG is RNG unfortunately. Missing a few shots in a row a balance concern does not make. If it were a reoccurring thing (old is-2) then sure but it's not that common as of yet.
19 Sep 2019, 23:25 PM
#126
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890



Sanders has pretty thoroughly dismantled your perspective on this unit based on complete anecdotes and a tightrope video. Please, just stop. KT is fine, you act like its the only vehicle you can build.


He didn't. There was still weapon stats he left out.

KT being in a good place is important since it's an Legendary Tank and it's getting real tiring going p4, panther every game.
19 Sep 2019, 23:44 PM
#127
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13807 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Sep 2019, 23:25 PMspajn


He didn't. There was still weapon stats he left out.

KT being in a good place is important since it's an Legendary Tank and it's getting real tiring going p4, panther every game.


KT -IS- in a good place now that its AI was buffed tremendously and it was made extremely reliable.
And its no more legendary then any other WW2 tank that belonged to any relevant army.
It was big and that's pretty much all it had for it. Hell, if there is something legendary thing about it, it would be the legendarily low quality of steel it was made out of and legendary frequency of technical problems all german marks past 4 faced.
20 Sep 2019, 00:39 AM
#128
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Sep 2019, 23:44 PMKatitof


KT -IS- in a good place now that its AI was buffed tremendously and it was made extremely reliable.
And its no more legendary then any other WW2 tank that belonged to any relevant army.
It was big and that's pretty much all it had for it. Hell, if there is something legendary thing about it, it would be the legendarily low quality of steel it was made out of and legendary frequency of technical problems all german marks past 4 faced.


Sure buy into all that Discovery history channel propaganda that all german tanks were overengineered crap. Their kill death ratio says enough, while being outnumbered, low on fuel and under total allied air control.
20 Sep 2019, 00:49 AM
#129
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 942

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2019, 00:39 AMspajn


Sure buy into all that Discovery history channel propaganda that all german tanks were overengineered crap. Their kill death ratio says enough, while being outnumbered, low on fuel and under total allied air control.


True, the King Tiger was legendary. Just ask IL2 pilots who didn’t even need fighter escorts after Bagration and just carped bombed these trashcans to death.

As for the kill death ratio, what are you? 15? Have you actually read anything on WW2? You think a k/d ratio matters when your logistics are dead, you get stuck in the mud, you are literally impossible to hide and you have the mobility of a turtle?

Stop typing legendary and go on amazon to buy some books. I recommend starting with David Glantz, he’s done some great overview work on the Eastern front.
20 Sep 2019, 01:20 AM
#130
avatar of Smiling Tiger

Posts: 207

If you want to learn about how effective the Tiger was than I highly recommend these two videos.

12:55 video length
How effective was the Tiger really?
YouTube · Military History Visualized
Dec 18, 2018

12:02 video length
A Controversial Opinion on Tiger
YouTube · The_Chieftain
1 month ago

Both of these videos come from WW2 experts and the later one was made by The Chieftain, who I have seen referred to as "Tank Jesus"

The one thing I will say myself is that the Tiger did not "have the mobility of a turtle" it was actually quite mobile, especially for its size. Steven Zaloga even praised it's off road performance during Operation Think Tank.

Regardless of your opinion on the Tiger I don't think that anybody can deny that it is legendary, it's by far the most famous/infamous Tank of WW2, there's a reason why "Tigerphobia" was a thing.

Edit: Links weren't working so I copied the text.
20 Sep 2019, 01:44 AM
#131
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 942

If you want to learn about how effective the Tiger was than I highly recommend these two videos.

12:55
How effective was the Tiger really?
YouTube · Military History Visualized
Dec 18, 2018

12:02
A Controversial Opinion on Tiger
YouTube · The_Chieftain
1 month ago

Both of these videos come from WW2 experts and the later one was made by The Chieftain, who I have seen referred to as "Tank Jesus"

The one thing I will say myself is that the Tiger did not "have the mobility of a turtle" it was actually quite mobile, especially for its size. Steven Zaloga even praised it's off road performance during Operation Think Tank.

Regardless of your opinion on the Tiger I don't think that anybody can deny that it is legendary, it's by far the most famous/infamous Tank of WW2, there's a reason why "Tigerphobia" was a thing.

Edit: Links weren't working so I copied the text.


Amazing, you decided to ignore every single real world application of King Tigers and focus on kill counts. Since they said, in a vacuum and with no strategic context, that they are “good” (whatever that means) then how dare anyone say otherwise, right? As for Tiger mobility, the KT had none. Just read on the Ardennes offensive and how it inhibited strategic movement by cluttering roads and supply networks. The Tiger 1 was much better in that regard, though again not compatible with schwerpunkt tactics, overengineered and hard to maintain.

As for the King Tiger needing better treatment because it’s a legendary tank, just look at how bad the T34/76 is in game. No further explanation needed.
20 Sep 2019, 02:04 AM
#132
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 469

Positive K/D ratio is going to be far easier to accomplish when you're on the defensive fighting planned battles, sometimes as little more than a semi-mobile pillbox since you've got no fuel or spare parts or bloody anything and your job is just to destroy every allied vehicle that drives down the road.

I will say this though, the KT should be far better than the Tiger I ingame, which should have horrible turret rotation and do most of its target acquisition by turning in place like the Stug. Same with the OKW P4 which is for whatever reason instead better than the Ostheer one.

If we were doing everything balance-related on the basis of history, M1 Garands also wouldn't be doing half damage compared to bolt actions, the Panzer IV would have less armor than the Sherman, vice versa for penetration. Tank shells, the Bazooka, and the Panzershrek would all do far more damage on penetrating hit, and the Panzerfaust would one-shot every tank in the game other than the SU-76M. Oh, and mortars and artillery would be OP, since it's probably fair to say they killed more people than any rifle, machine gun or tank ever did.

What a game that would be.
20 Sep 2019, 02:09 AM
#133
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 382


As for the King Tiger needing better treatment because it’s a legendary tank, just look at how bad the T34/76 is in game. No further explanation needed.


Claiming: " King Tiger needing better treatment because it’s a legendary tank" is just another example of axis bias.

Talking of legends, each tank in the game have it own legend.
20 Sep 2019, 02:29 AM
#134
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3236 | Subs: 1

More talking about the INGAME KT and where it should fit balance wise and less about K/D ratios of actual KTs from the war
20 Sep 2019, 02:32 AM
#135
avatar of Smiling Tiger

Posts: 207



Amazing, you decided to ignore every single real world application of King Tigers and focus on kill counts. Since they said, in a vacuum and with no strategic context, that they are “good” (whatever that means) then how dare anyone say otherwise, right? As for Tiger mobility, the KT had none. Just read on the Ardennes offensive and how it inhibited strategic movement by cluttering roads and supply networks. The Tiger 1 was much better in that regard, though again not compatible with schwerpunkt tactics, overengineered and hard to maintain.

As for the King Tiger needing better treatment because it’s a legendary tank, just look at how bad the T34/76 is in game. No further explanation needed.


You must not have watched either video because the first one is much more comprehensive than simply looking at kill counts and the second one doesn't even list them.

The Ardennes is an awful example because the Germans actually planned to steal feul in order to keep moving which was an idea doomed for failure. In addition the roads being blocked by the Tigers was much more a simple reality of driving on narrow roads through thick forest than anything else.

Once again I'll mention that Steven Zaloga (another tank expert who has written numerous books on tanks) said that the Tigers had good offroad performance on Operation Think Tank.

Lastly, don't ever put words in my mouth! Never did I ever say that the Tiger should be buffed simply because it is legendary, all I said was that it was so.

On topic: I feel like the best way to fix the King Tiger would be a moving accuracy buff. The Churchill has good moving accuracy because its terrible mobility forces it to fire on the move most of the time, the King Tiger should get similar treatment because not only is it slow but unlike the Churchill it also has afwul turret rotation speed that often times requires the hull to be manually turned to engage targets fast enough.
20 Sep 2019, 03:04 AM
#136
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1

More talking about the INGAME KT and where it should fit balance wise and less about K/D ratios of actual KTs from the war


+1

Arguments about “realism” are only good if they serve the purpose of improving the game. There is a massive difference between making the game actually realistic and making the game sound realistic, look realistic and “feel” realistic. In this regard we strive to get the feeling there by discarding absolute authenticity in order to present a playable experience that feels authentic, and most importantly is fun.
20 Sep 2019, 03:40 AM
#137
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890



Claiming: " King Tiger needing better treatment because it’s a legendary tank" is just another example of axis bias.

Talking of legends, each tank in the game have it own legend.


It is axis bias to not want one of the most expensive tanks in the game actually be worth its price? Your argument is more like allied bias where just because one historian said the King Tiger was shit it has to be shit in the game too. All im asking for to be worth its investment in the game which it is currently not. Its more a meme than a tank atm.
20 Sep 2019, 03:48 AM
#138
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890



True, the King Tiger was legendary. Just ask IL2 pilots who didn’t even need fighter escorts after Bagration and just carped bombed these trashcans to death.

As for the kill death ratio, what are you? 15? Have you actually read anything on WW2? You think a k/d ratio matters when your logistics are dead, you get stuck in the mud, you are literally impossible to hide and you have the mobility of a turtle?

Stop typing legendary and go on amazon to buy some books. I recommend starting with David Glantz, he’s done some great overview work on the Eastern front.


Do you have reading comprehension? I said its kill death ratio was still legendary despite being outnumbered, fuel problems and being harrassed by allied air power constantly. Meaning i don't believe in historians with an allied bias who constantly bashes germans being "complete idiots".
20 Sep 2019, 03:50 AM
#139
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890



RNG is RNG unfortunately. Missing a few shots in a row a balance concern does not make. If it were a reoccurring thing (old is-2) then sure but it's not that common as of yet.


tbh i didnt find IS2 missing infantry prepatch. It had such an huge AOE that misses still dealt damage. The misses with no damage where from noobs that constantly had is2 moving while shooting and never understood that a tanks accuracy is greatly reduced while moving.
20 Sep 2019, 04:25 AM
#140
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1323



True, the King Tiger was legendary. Just ask IL2 pilots who didn’t even need fighter escorts after Bagration and just carped bombed these trashcans to death.

As for the kill death ratio, what are you? 15? Have you actually read anything on WW2? You think a k/d ratio matters when your logistics are dead, you get stuck in the mud, you are literally impossible to hide and you have the mobility of a turtle?

Stop typing legendary and go on amazon to buy some books. I recommend starting with David Glantz, he’s done some great overview work on the Eastern front.


I read somewhere that German's armor "K/D" was something like 1.2 to 1 in the last year. Hardly the stuff of legend. I don't think they had much of anything left in the west after the collapse of the Falaise Pocket. After transferring armor in from the East, they lost it all again in the Battle of the Bulge. Contrary to popular belief, they didn't fare all that well against the Americans once the Americans became a little more experienced.

COH2 distorts reality in many ways. The M10 and M36 could one shot a Tiger or Panther. In fact, that was probably about the only way they did it because if the first shot didn't penetrate, they were likely running for their lives at that point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3zd1f9/what_was_the_actual_kd_ratio_of_german_ww2_armor/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arracourt

All that said, this is a game, not a simulation.


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