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State of the Kingtiger

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16 Sep 2019, 06:13 AM
#101
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2018

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2019, 21:20 PMgbem




if you cant win with a panther then you need to l2p


it means only your opponent has minimum the same skill lvl from you or above.

When 2 players with the same skill lvl play against...the ISU player would have many advantages with this beast... panther need ages to deal with it..and will surprised by stealth zis guns
16 Sep 2019, 06:37 AM
#102
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



it means only your opponent has minimum the same skill lvl from you or above.

When 2 players with the same skill lvl play against...the ISU player would have many advantages with this beast... panther need ages to deal with it..and will surprised by stealth zis guns


Fight doctrines with doctrines... axis has the elefant and riegel mines... use them ya scrub
16 Sep 2019, 08:22 AM
#103
avatar of Bratkartoffel

Posts: 23

To any Tank or unit, there should always be a counter without relating to a special doctrine. Otherwise its bad gamedesign and if it would be that way, you can drop at the start of the game, when you see a doc you have no counter in loadout for!!!

I think no one can deny, that fighting the isu with just a panther from front, means to go a long way. You have to flank with all the risks and any decent player is for sure protecting a high valuable target like an ISU.

Back to topic: In the past, the Kingtiger more often killed more units with one shot than now. But now you have a more consistent but lower impact with hits. Thats what I found out.

Well, the King is not a King in any way and often not the best pick. Thats sad and maybe thats, what many players complain, cause it is a very costly tank and therefor should have more impact.

17 Sep 2019, 17:31 PM
#104
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 918

KT sucks, very slow fire rate, very slow turret speed and poor AOE comparede to IS2 and pershing. Whats the point even?

It's also slow and clumsy and dies very easy.

It comes way too late and is too expensive for what it gives. 9 times out of ten you are better off with a faster panther. Tiger 1 provides superior firepower because of its rate of fire.
17 Sep 2019, 17:39 PM
#105
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 643

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 17:31 PMspajn
KT sucks, very slow fire rate, very slow turret speed and poor AOE comparede to IS2 and pershing. Whats the point even?

It's also slow and clumsy and dies very easy.

It comes way too late and is too expensive for what it gives. 9 times out of ten you are better off with a faster panther. Tiger 1 provides superior firepower because of its rate of fire.


+1
17 Sep 2019, 18:29 PM
#106
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2445 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 17:31 PMspajn
KT sucks, very slow fire rate

Its reload is 6.25s, which is remarkably high for how much damage it does (240).

For comparison, the Jackson (160dmg) has 6.55s, the Panther (160dmg) has 6.65s, the Firefly (200dmg) has 8s. I believe the KT has the highest DPM of all tanks.


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 17:31 PMspajn
very slow turret speed

Turret speed is slow, but now it gets Spearhead at a reduced requirement for veterancy 1. Vet 1 is really easy to get now.
Spearhead (amongst other things) gives +60% turret rotation.

Vet 2 (also at a very reduced requirement now) gives an additional +40% turret rotation.


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 17:31 PMspajn
and poor AOE comparede to IS2 and pershing

Not true at all.

Tiger II
Damage 240
Scatter angle 5
AOE radius 4
AOE distance 0/1.25/4
AOE damage 0.75/0.25/0.15
(damage is 180/60/36)

Pershing
Damage 160
Scatter angle 6
AOE radius 4
AOE distance 0.25/1.25/3.25
AOE damage 0.75/0.375/0.175
(damage is 120/60/28)

IS-2
Damage 160
Scatter angle 5.75
AOE radius 5
AOE distance 0.25/1/3
AOE damage 1/0.35/0.175
(damage is 160/56/28)


So as you can see, the KT arguably has the better AOE radius with a larger mid AOE than the IS-2 and better scatter, as well as slightly higher damage. Compared to the Pershing it has a much larger mid AOE as well as slightly better near range AOE and slightly higher damage.

Or as Lago presented in a graph:

(red is Tiger II, blue is Pershing)

17 Sep 2019, 19:05 PM
#107
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3696 | Subs: 1


Its reload is 6.25s, which is remarkably high for how much damage it does (240).

For comparison, the Jackson (160dmg) has 6.55s, the Panther (160dmg) has 6.65s, the Firefly (200dmg) has 8s. I believe the KT has the highest DPM of all tanks.



Turret speed is slow, but now it gets Spearhead at a reduced requirement for veterancy 1. Vet 1 is really easy to get now.
Spearhead (amongst other things) gives +60% turret rotation.

Vet 2 (also at a very reduced requirement now) gives an additional +40% turret rotation.



Not true at all.

Tiger II
Damage 240
Scatter angle 5
AOE radius 4
AOE distance 0/1.25/4
AOE damage 0.75/0.25/0.15
(damage is 180/60/36)

Pershing
Damage 160
Scatter angle 6
AOE radius 4
AOE distance 0.25/1.25/3.25
AOE damage 0.75/0.375/0.175
(damage is 120/60/28)

IS-2
Damage 160
Scatter angle 5.75
AOE radius 5
AOE distance 0.25/1/3
AOE damage 1/0.35/0.175
(damage is 160/56/28)


So as you can see, the KT arguably has the better AOE radius with a larger mid AOE than the IS-2 and better scatter, as well as slightly higher damage. Compared to the Pershing it has a much larger mid AOE as well as slightly better near range AOE and slightly higher damage.

Or as Lago presented in a graph:

(red is Tiger II, blue is Pershing)



This may be true in stats, but why in tightropes tests did the KT miss 4 times in a row vs a nearby squad when the Pershing, IS2 (albeit 1 miss) and Tiger all wiped in 1 shot?

The KT also costs more and is probably about 2/3 the speed of these other tanks. In exchange for 2(?) or 3(?) in the case of the pershing in HP and 75 more armor than the Tiger 1.

My point is, you pay more and get minimal armor boost (and none in the case of the IS2), more HP, lower speed, typically engaging larger squads and higher pen TDs. Just isn't worth mathmatically.
17 Sep 2019, 19:39 PM
#108
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2445 | Subs: 5

This may be true in stats, but why in tightropes tests did the KT miss 4 times in a row vs a nearby squad when the Pershing, IS2 (albeit 1 miss) and Tiger all wiped in 1 shot?


Because scatter is very subjective to RNG and 1-3 tests really do not give a conclusive picture. Run the test again and the KT might kill squads in 2 shots, or it might miss 5 shots in a row. You need at least 50-100 tests to get proper results. Especially the one test where the squad was too close (causing the KT to overshoot) wasn't conclusive at all.

I've been trying out the KT in automatch and the new scatter/AOE is really nice and consistent. Additionally, Spearhead mode makes it a very good vehicle.


As for durability, it gets the best of both; the highest armor shared with IS-2 but also the highest amount of hitpoints, making it the most durable tank in the game. It has the highest (vet 0) DPM of all tanks afaik. Spearhead, HEAT shells and tank commander make it a really good unit. Keep some infantry, Raketens and a Jagdpanzer IV close and it makes up for a very good army composition with the KT's newly improved performance. At least in team games. I can understand that in 1v1s, where mobility is more important, the unit might be worse than the faster heavy tanks.
17 Sep 2019, 19:50 PM
#109
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

Sander, you're a good guy.
17 Sep 2019, 19:51 PM
#110
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3696 | Subs: 1



Because scatter is very subjective to RNG and 1-3 tests really do not give a conclusive picture. Run the test again and the KT might kill squads in 2 shots, or it might miss 5 shots in a row. You need at least 50-100 tests to get proper results. Especially the one test where the squad was too close (causing the KT to overshoot) wasn't conclusive at all.

I've been trying out the KT in automatch and the new scatter/AOE is really nice and consistent. Additionally, Spearhead mode makes it a very good vehicle.


As for durability, it gets the best of both; the highest armor shared with IS-2 but also the highest amount of hitpoints, making it the most durable tank in the game. It has the highest (vet 0) DPM of all tanks afaik. Spearhead, HEAT shells and tank commander make it a really good unit. Keep some infantry, Raketens and a Jagdpanzer IV close and it makes up for a very good army composition with the KT's newly improved performance. At least in team games. I can understand that in 1v1s, where mobility is more important, the unit might be worse than the faster heavy tanks.


I can understand your point, but this here is key for this unit IMO. Like the heavy TDs, these tanks excel at those lane heavy "redball" type maps where mobility it limited, and the only way around these heavy tanks is through them. Then you go into 1v1 and a mix of mobility and lethality is a must. I guess it depends more if the balance team wants this unit to be a teamgame only unit like the heavy TDs primarily, or strong in 1s but almost always a go-to in teams as it used to be.
17 Sep 2019, 19:56 PM
#111
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2445 | Subs: 5

I guess it depends more if the balance team wants this unit to be a teamgame only unit like the heavy TDs primarily, or strong in 1s but almost always a go-to in teams as it used to be.


Yeah, to be blatantly honest, the King Tiger is one of those units (like the Maxim) that can't be good in both modes. So we basically have to pick one game mode so that it doesn't become overpowered in the other(s). I wouldn't use the King Tiger on the very large team games maps either (because of low mobility and 60 range TD pinata) but it is really good now on the tighter team games maps where you can just lock down your area of the map with it and some supporting troops.
17 Sep 2019, 20:39 PM
#112
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343

sander don't forget the scatter max distance and the off set
18 Sep 2019, 07:37 AM
#113
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 918


Its reload is 6.25s, which is remarkably high for how much damage it does (240).

For comparison, the Jackson (160dmg) has 6.55s, the Panther (160dmg) has 6.65s, the Firefly (200dmg) has 8s. I believe the KT has the highest DPM of all tanks.



Turret speed is slow, but now it gets Spearhead at a reduced requirement for veterancy 1. Vet 1 is really easy to get now.
Spearhead (amongst other things) gives +60% turret rotation.

Vet 2 (also at a very reduced requirement now) gives an additional +40% turret rotation.



Not true at all.

Tiger II
Damage 240
Scatter angle 5
AOE radius 4
AOE distance 0/1.25/4
AOE damage 0.75/0.25/0.15
(damage is 180/60/36)

Pershing
Damage 160
Scatter angle 6
AOE radius 4
AOE distance 0.25/1.25/3.25
AOE damage 0.75/0.375/0.175
(damage is 120/60/28)

IS-2
Damage 160
Scatter angle 5.75
AOE radius 5
AOE distance 0.25/1/3
AOE damage 1/0.35/0.175
(damage is 160/56/28)


So as you can see, the KT arguably has the better AOE radius with a larger mid AOE than the IS-2 and better scatter, as well as slightly higher damage. Compared to the Pershing it has a much larger mid AOE as well as slightly better near range AOE and slightly higher damage.

Or as Lago presented in a graph:

(red is Tiger II, blue is Pershing)



something doesnt add up, i have played enough to know a IS2, pershing almost fully wipes squads in a single shot while both KT and tiger usually just snipes models. I have better luck with hits from Tiger 1 than the KT.

Also comparing a cheap TD such as jacksons fire rate to the investment of KT is not fair. KT will mostly fight of infantry which is sucks at doing because of its shitty firerate. Tanks will just drive away from the KT and due to its speed it cant catch up. You cant just spearhead into the enemy with the KT because it will die due to not being able to absorb damage.
18 Sep 2019, 08:04 AM
#114
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2161 | Subs: 1

IMO the only way to make KT and Tiger decent is to remove the extra pen SU85 and Jackson get with vet. There is no need for them to have 300+ penetration. If the KT bounced a few more shots it would already be very good.
18 Sep 2019, 08:45 AM
#115
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8706 | Subs: 1

IMO the only way to make KT and Tiger decent is to remove the extra pen SU85 and Jackson get with vet. There is no need for them to have 300+ penetration. If the KT bounced a few more shots it would already be very good.

Have been saying this for years...
rqd
18 Sep 2019, 08:48 AM
#116
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

IMO the only way to make KT and Tiger decent is to remove the extra pen SU85 and Jackson get with vet. There is no need for them to have 300+ penetration. If the KT bounced a few more shots it would already be very good.


They don't have 300+ pen with vet. At range 60 vetted su-85 and m36 get 220*1.3=286 penertration. KT still deflects 1/5 of their shots.
18 Sep 2019, 08:49 AM
#117
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2161 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 08:48 AMrqd


They don't have 300+ pen with vet. At range 60 vetted su-85 and m36 get 220*1.3=286 penertration. KT still deflects 1/5 of their shots.


Jackson Vet 3 Pen: 338/312/286 with HVAP 390/364/325
SU 85 Vet 3 Pen: 312/299/286

Deflecting 20% of shots is not enough for a super heavy IMO.
18 Sep 2019, 09:47 AM
#118
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343



Jackson Vet 3 Pen: 338/312/286 with HVAP 390/364/325
SU 85 Vet 3 Pen: 312/299/286

Deflecting 20% of shots is not enough for a super heavy IMO.
the stug, jp4 and panther cries in low pen and 50-40% chance to deflect :foreveralone:
18 Sep 2019, 09:48 AM
#119
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 07:37 AMspajn


something doesnt add up, i have played enough to know a IS2, pershing almost fully wipes squads in a single shot while both KT and tiger usually just snipes models. I have better luck with hits from Tiger 1 than the KT.

Also comparing a cheap TD such as jacksons fire rate to the investment of KT is not fair. KT will mostly fight of infantry which is sucks at doing because of its shitty firerate. Tanks will just drive away from the KT and due to its speed it cant catch up. You cant just spearhead into the enemy with the KT because it will die due to not being able to absorb damage.
well yes it does not add up, kt has lower 80 damage radius than Pershing and way worse max distance and off set scatter
18 Sep 2019, 16:59 PM
#120
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2445 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 07:37 AMspajn
something doesnt add up, i have played enough to know a IS2, pershing almost fully wipes squads in a single shot while both KT and tiger usually just snipes models. I have better luck with hits from Tiger 1 than the KT.

...you do realise that all heavy tank AOE was recently (as in two weeks ago) completely changed? Their one shot kill radius was reduced but their health damage radius was increased, along with an increase in the chance to hit squads, so that they will deal more consistent damage to infantry instead of being RNG wipe-or-miss fests.

The Tiger II got pretty much the best AOE out of those changes, as shown above, although it's only slightly ahead of the IS-2 and Pershing.


jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 07:37 AMspajn
Also comparing a cheap TD such as jacksons fire rate to the investment of KT is not fair. KT will mostly fight of infantry which is sucks at doing because of its shitty firerate.

Why do you insist the rate of fire is shitty? The reload is really good for the damage it does compared to most/all other vehicles. 6.25s is a really good reload. A Panzer IV has (160dmg) has 5.75s. The Pershing (160dmg) has 6.75s. The IS-2 (160dmg) has 6.65s. The Tiger has (160dmg) has 5.25s.
There is absolutely no reason to think the Tiger II's reload is "shitty". It's above most other heavy tanks, only second to the Tiger I by 1s, but it deals 50% more damage per shot. The only downside to its reload is that it doesn't get a veterancy reload bonus until vet 5 while most other tanks get it at vet 3.

Again, its AOE and scatter got a major buff in the recent patch, and now it generally forces squads to retreat in ~2 shots. It no longer sucks at fighting infantry.


jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 07:37 AMspajn
You cant just spearhead into the enemy with the KT because it will die due to not being able to absorb damage.

Not able to absorb damage? It has 375 armor (highest in the game for heavy tanks shared with IS-2, but the IS-2 has less health) AND 1280hp (highest in the game for heavy tanks shared with Tiger Ace, but the Tiger Ace has less armor). It is literally the most durable tank in the game right now.


Your opinion on the Tiger II seems to be pretty much entirely based on misinformation and misconception.
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