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russian armor

sturm officer

4 Oct 2019, 21:11 PM
#41
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3991



The Sturmoffizier scales way better and at vet 5 (which is really easy to get with the shared vet) completely wipes the floor with a (vet 3) Commissar Squad. Or most other squads for that matter.

starting RA 0,91

Veterancy 3: +40% Accuracy
Veterancy 4: -29% Received Accuracy
Veterancy 5: -25% Weapon Cooldown, Offizier switches to an StG 44

VS strating RA 0,87

-Veterancy 2: +40% weapon accuracy. Increases Propaganda, Stand Your Ground, and Fight to the Death range by 5.
-Veterancy 3: -29% weapon cooldown, - 23% Received Accuracy.

yep totally better it gets 0,01 better RA at vet 5 and worse CD for weapons

the stg is useful but does not make up for the fact all its ability are worse and more expensive than others
+ it lacks in utility

and this does not excuse the poor performance early unlike other officer units
4 Oct 2019, 21:14 PM
#42
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1979 | Subs: 3

Did you forget that the Sturm Offizier has easy access to 4 Obersoldaten Kar 98Ks with ~100% more DPS at all ranges than the Commissar's 3/4 SVT rifles? 4% less cooldown with vet does not matter when the base DPS is so much higher.

Run some tests if you like (I already did); on average a vet 5 Sturm Offizier easily wins versus a vet 3 Commissar with 3-4 models left at closer ranges and 4-5 models at long range.


Early performance is fine. The Offizier hits the field early at 2CPs and even at vet 0 the squad can fight with vet 0/1 mainline infantry from heavy cover quite comfortably. At best, it could use 0.8 TZ instead of 0.91 to help with the bleed a bit. It gains vet 2 and above really fast if you keep it near your other units, after which it can quite easily take on most units except maybe double BAR/Bren mainlines and some elite infantry. Stick it behind heavy cover or in a garrison and the kills keep stacking up.
4 Oct 2019, 21:28 PM
#43
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 599

I agree with Honeynuts. I'm also continually frustrated with people's "long range" tests that have the units unaligned, which results in one model sometimes not being able to shoot all of the opposing squad's models, or makes it easier for one model to be focused on by the entire opposing squad.

Putting them on a line via sandbags then deleting them will still leave RNG for the latter issue, but at least it won't stop a model from shooting because the enemy is "too far away".
4 Oct 2019, 23:05 PM
#44
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3991

I agree with Honeynuts. I'm also continually frustrated with people's "long range" tests that have the units unaligned, which results in one model sometimes not being able to shoot all of the opposing squad's models, or makes it easier for one model to be focused on by the entire opposing squad.

Putting them on a line via sandbags then deleting them will still leave RNG for the latter issue, but at least it won't stop a model from shooting because the enemy is "too far away".
it was 30 range so they still hit anyway
4 Oct 2019, 23:06 PM
#45
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3991

Did you forget that the Sturm Offizier has easy access to 4 Obersoldaten Kar 98Ks with ~100% more DPS at all ranges than the Commissar's 3/4 SVT rifles? 4% less cooldown with vet does not matter when the base DPS is so much higher.

Run some tests if you like (I already did); on average a vet 5 Sturm Offizier easily wins versus a vet 3 Commissar with 3-4 models left at closer ranges and 4-5 models at long range.


Early performance is fine. The Offizier hits the field early at 2CPs and even at vet 0 the squad can fight with vet 0/1 mainline infantry from heavy cover quite comfortably. At best, it could use 0.8 TZ instead of 0.91 to help with the bleed a bit. It gains vet 2 and above really fast if you keep it near your other units, after which it can quite easily take on most units except maybe double BAR/Bren mainlines and some elite infantry. Stick it behind heavy cover or in a garrison and the kills keep stacking up.
yes buff the base RA i know they are good at vet 5, but the abilities are sub par and until vet5 they are worse in combat for the price
5 Oct 2019, 08:41 AM
#46
avatar of blancat

Posts: 602

The problem of strum officer is no reason to use

why am i use this unit? for what?

Is it worth picking this unit instead of one volk?

JLI? fallshrumjager?

They are powerful AI infantry worth making instead of volk

His skills is very hard to use in early timing for price

first, "Target Them!"

If you make a strum office, you get one less Volk

4 volk dps VS 3 volk + officer + "Target Them!" dps

What's more benefit?
yep, 3 volk + officer + skill dps is Slightly stronger than 4 volk but If you don't have a skill that requires 40 muni, you'll always get less dps and worse map control than 4 volk

The passive buffs that strum officers had alleviated this problem somewhat, but the mod team did not understand this principle.
The mod team has no understanding of the original unit configuration or tier configuration, and there is no question about "Why did they initially do this?"

They just think that if a unit is not used often, the unit's performance is bad and just buff it (JLI, falls, shocks etc ...)

This unit wasn't even buffed at all


conclusion) Recreate the reason for making this unit

type 1 - more AI supporter

give 1 stg44 for strum officer basically and roll back passive buff

make passive buff to toggle skill(Apply penalty while skill is active)

cost is decreasing Muni income(-100%)

reverse vet 2 and vet 5 (vet2 : weapon cooldown -25% and add 1 stg44, vet 5 : Increases squad size to 5, +10 to ability range)



type 2 - Adding skills to breakthrough

Adding more useful skills in the current state

recon flight, sprint buff to nearby unit, etc...








5 Oct 2019, 18:55 PM
#47
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

As with most okw infantry problems it comes down to "why should I just build another volks squad? Why do I want to lose out on being able to deny any form of cover? Why would I want 1 less squad? Why would I want Kar rifles on a unit when I can get stgs which are like rifles, but way better up close and on the move? Why would I give up the ability to build myself cover anywhere I have infantry?

Sturm officer does make volks better, but doesn't have the same impact you will get with just another volk. Volks are independent. The sturm is not and so you are narrowing your front coverage because it has to be with another unit to get the most out of it which you can also do with simply another volk by out numbering your enemy
5 Oct 2019, 19:22 PM
#48
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

Both Sturm Offizier and Artillery Field Officer need 3mp lower reinforcement cost to become efficient enough to use instead of camp behind infantry. Would go from 35/30 respectively to 32/27.

NKVD officer needs abilities that actually make a difference (from free single squad buffs to timed aura buff with small muni cost).
5 Oct 2019, 19:29 PM
#49
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1979 | Subs: 3

Why would I want Kar rifles on a unit when I can get stgs which are like rifles, but way better up close and on the move?


Not true. The Offizier scales way better than STG44 Volksgrenadiers, and it also gains veterancy much quicker (because of shared vet). Volks only gain a slight edge at vet 2, but the Offizier's DPS pulls ahead at vet 3 and at vet 5 it's nearly twice as high.

Remember, the Offizier's bodyguards have Obersoldaten Kar 98Ks which are really powerful rifles. They are basically as good as Volks STG 44s at short to mid range and twice as good at long range.



Volks with STG 44 at range 10 have:
- 24.174 DPS at vet 0;
- roughly 35 DPS at vet 2;
- roughly 35 DPS at vet 5.
(Combat bonuses: 1.3 accuracy, 0.8 cooldown)

Sturm Offizier at range 10 has:
- 21.269 DPS at vet 0;
- 27.592 DPS at vet 2;
- roughly 55-60 DPS at vet 5.
(Combat bonuses: 1.4 accuracy, 0.75 cooldown, +1 Obers Kar 98k, 1x PGren STG44)

Furthermore, because of the severe burst duration multiplier (0.375), the moving DPS for Volks STG 44 is not better (roughly 45% at range 10) at close and mid ranges than rifles (roughly 45% at range 10 for most rifles, 50% for Obers Kar 98Ks).


In conclusion, the Offizier is basically a cheap Obersoldaten squad that trades an LMG 34 for an STG 44 and powerful abilities. Besides these very useful abilities (smoke/forced retreat vs HMGs, forced retreat vs elite squads or focus fire to melt specific squads) the unit's DPS at vet 5 is high enough to quite easily win versus anything that isn't an elite squad (even vet 3 double BAR Rifles have only ~40 DPS at range 10).
5 Oct 2019, 19:29 PM
#50
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3991

Both Sturm Offizier and Artillery Field Officer need 3mp lower reinforcement cost to become efficient enough to use instead of camp behind infantry. Would go from 35/30 respectively to 32/27.

NKVD officer needs abilities that actually make a difference (from free single squad buffs to timed aura buff with small muni cost).
the commissar has an AOE mass pin and retreat and healing
5 Oct 2019, 19:42 PM
#51
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

the commissar has an AOE mass pin and retreat and healing


Yeah, the Artillery Field Officer also has useful abilities that are not directly combat related, like:

- Free smoke barrage.
- Cheap 40 munition mortar barrage.
- Ability to let artillery units refire.
- Diversion (kinda bad).

But in the meantime it also offers a strong buff for 25 munitions:

- 15-25% higher accuracy for nearby infantry (with good non-doctrinal Pgrens to make use of it).
- 13-25% less reload for nearby tanks (hard to use, but it's there if you ever find the opportunity).

Meanwhile the Commissar also has good non-combat related abilities as you mentioned and is a more efficient fighting squad (why I suggest lower reinforcement for AFO/Sturm), but the buffs are pretty lackluster. While free, you don't have true elite infantry to use it on, they have drawbacks and only affect a single squad. Replacing the abilities with something like a -25% RA aura or the Sturm Offizier's "Target Them" would make NKVD a slightly more valid doctrine.
5 Oct 2019, 20:43 PM
#52
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13788 | Subs: 7

the commissar has an AOE mass pin and retreat and healing

Commissar also doesn't have obersoldaten level infantry behind his back.
5 Oct 2019, 20:49 PM
#53
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 272



Yeah, the Artillery Field Officer also has useful abilities that are not directly combat related, like:

- Free smoke barrage.
- Cheap 40 munition mortar barrage.
- Ability to let artillery units refire.
- Diversion (kinda bad).



To be honest I've found the artillery officer's durability buff quite handy. I threaten close combat with the officer by moving it closer to the enemy and when focus fire switches to it, pop it and put the officer in cover while the real damage dealers are unmolested. If focus fire switches back, just keep marching the officer forward.
6 Oct 2019, 00:45 AM
#54
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1



To be honest I've found the artillery officer's durability buff quite handy. I threaten close combat with the officer by moving it closer to the enemy and when focus fire switches to it, pop it and put the officer in cover while the real damage dealers are unmolested. If focus fire switches back, just keep marching the officer forward.


Well you could be using those 25 munitions on the aura buff instead. :megusta:

For me it never felt like it did much, it generally doesn't make the squad win against squads it would already lose to, you go from 0,7 RA to 0,56 RA at vet 3 which is not the most noticable bonus. your way of using it sounds interesting however, I will try it sometime.
6 Oct 2019, 01:58 AM
#55
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3991


Commissar also doesn't have obersoldaten level infantry behind his back.
nope, it loses to coverless IS, if it had More base RA and mg 34 it would be over lvl
6 Oct 2019, 02:43 AM
#56
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1



Not true. The Offizier scales way better than STG44 Volksgrenadiers, and it also gains veterancy much quicker (because of shared vet). Volks only gain a slight edge at vet 2, but the Offizier's DPS pulls ahead at vet 3 and at vet 5 it's nearly twice as high.

Remember, the Offizier's bodyguards have Obersoldaten Kar 98Ks which are really powerful rifles. They are basically as good as Volks STG 44s at short to mid range and twice as good at long range.



Volks with STG 44 at range 10 have:
- 24.174 DPS at vet 0;
- roughly 35 DPS at vet 2;
- roughly 35 DPS at vet 5.
(Combat bonuses: 1.3 accuracy, 0.8 cooldown)

Sturm Offizier at range 10 has:
- 21.269 DPS at vet 0;
- 27.592 DPS at vet 2;
- roughly 55-60 DPS at vet 5.
(Combat bonuses: 1.4 accuracy, 0.75 cooldown, +1 Obers Kar 98k, 1x PGren STG44)

Furthermore, because of the severe burst duration multiplier (0.375), the moving DPS for Volks STG 44 is not better (roughly 45% at range 10) at close and mid ranges than rifles (roughly 45% at range 10 for most rifles, 50% for Obers Kar 98Ks).


In conclusion, the Offizier is basically a cheap Obersoldaten squad that trades an LMG 34 for an STG 44 and powerful abilities. Besides these very useful abilities (smoke/forced retreat vs HMGs, forced retreat vs elite squads or focus fire to melt specific squads) the unit's DPS at vet 5 is high enough to quite easily win versus anything that isn't an elite squad (even vet 3 double BAR Rifles have only ~40 DPS at range 10).

All that might be true, but it doesn't matter how good the call in infantry is when the core infantry leaves little to be desired. It's like the old DSHK in comparison to the old maxim. Undeniably better but not as easy to access and not worth picking a doctrine for when the core unit is good enough to carry and allow the player to pick something more exciting. Look at how strong falls had to be made just to be an attractive pick.
6 Oct 2019, 03:06 AM
#57
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1546


All that might be true, but it doesn't matter how good the call in infantry is when the core infantry leaves little to be desired. It's like the old DSHK in comparison to the old maxim. Undeniably better but not as easy to access and not worth picking a doctrine for when the core unit is good enough to carry and allow the player to pick something more exciting. Look at how strong falls had to be made just to be an attractive pick.


I mean breakthrough offers a lot of good stuff besides Sturm offizier. At least in 2v2s and up anyway. 1v1 i will admit the doctrine/offizier seem less valuable
6 Oct 2019, 03:16 AM
#58
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1



I mean breakthrough offers a lot of good stuff besides Sturm offizier. At least in 2v2s and up anyway. 1v1 i will admit the doctrine/offizier seem less valuable

I agree the new reworked commander is a blast. Untying the arty was a great change but trying to make the sturm alone LOOK good on paper and making it an attractive choice in game are different because you can never have too many volks. The commander is fun, and once falls are in a more reasonable place we might see more of it but if it's not of the caliber of falls or JLI people just won't feel like it's worth it.
6 Oct 2019, 07:24 AM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13788 | Subs: 7

nope, it loses to coverless IS, if it had More base RA and mg 34 it would be over lvl

I'm not talking about his retinue, I'm talking about fucking obers you can spam with it.
6 Oct 2019, 07:32 AM
#60
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 345

Actually the doctrine in its current state is solid. Yeah the panzerfusilier is still not good for the opener but later in the game G43 Pfusi blob + Sturmoffizier just a-move like there is no tomorrow. You got smoke for concealment, force retreat for HMGs, target them for problematic infantry like paras. Both doctrine and Offizier are obviously better than ever.
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