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russian armor

Jagdtiger not reliable anymore?

11 Sep 2019, 10:53 AM
#21
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1915

Can some people explain please why they think the old JT was better? Yeah it was so much better that it was used in 0% of the top 200 teamgame matches, guys. I guess it was only being used in a trash micro vs trash micro match?

I tried the new JT and hated it. It's a clone of the Ele while being stuck in a bad doctrine.


Breakthrough doctrine bad in the new patch? Are you legitimately trolling?



It's a clone of the Ele


No it's not. It has actual comparable mobility now while still having 50 more armor and 80 more hitpoints. Especially the superior armor can still make a huge difference vs tank destroyers compared to an Elefant.
Oh and the engine upgrade got reworked in case you didnt notice it (wasnt in the patch notes). It gives the JT a noticable amount of extra speed if out of combat now. The old upgrade did almost nothing and the JT still moved like a brick, but now they buffed its base rotation and acceleration. And that was the main problem of the old trash JT. Once it finished reacting to an enemy attack on another part of the map, that attack was already over.

Vs what targets did you use the barrage ability? Mobile inf squads? The tests vs MGs and AT guns seemed perfectly fine to me.


Are you sure that the JT suffers from a 0.5 accuracy penalty on most of its shots or are you just assuming that?
11 Sep 2019, 10:55 AM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6204 | Subs: 1

If your 70 range TD with 450 frontal armour is getting snared I don't know what to tell you...

Frontal armor accounts for only half the vehicle and AT grenades tend to score rear hits. For some unknown reason both elephant and JT have lower rear/side armor than ISU-152.
11 Sep 2019, 12:15 PM
#23
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 549

Changing it to Elefant clone was literally a buff, it still wrecks allied TD's frontally but now has mobility to do something other than just standing still on one part of the map
11 Sep 2019, 14:18 PM
#24
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1430

Can some people explain please why they think the old JT was better? Yeah it was so much better that it was used in 0% of the top 200 teamgame matches, guys. I guess it was only being used in a trash micro vs trash micro match?

Breakthrough doctrine bad in the new patch? Are you legitimately trolling?

No it's not. It has actual comparable mobility now while still having 50 more armor and 80 more hitpoints. Especially the superior armor can still make a huge difference vs tank destroyers compared to an Elefant.
Oh and the engine upgrade got reworked in case you didnt notice it (wasnt in the patch notes). It gives the JT a noticable amount of extra speed if out of combat now. The old upgrade did almost nothing and the JT still moved like a brick, but now they buffed its base rotation and acceleration. And that was the main problem of the old trash JT. Once it finished reacting to an enemy attack on another part of the map, that attack was already over.

Vs what targets did you use the barrage ability? Mobile inf squads? The tests vs MGs and AT guns seemed perfectly fine to me.


Are you sure that the JT suffers from a 0.5 accuracy penalty on most of its shots or are you just assuming that?


Old JT was shit, that's why it wasn't used. But instead of making it viable they just turned it into an Ele clone. Extremely boring IMO. Yes it has slightly more survivability but the difference is insignificant in most situations. What other major differences are there? Easiest solution would have been to keep the JT as it was but improve aim time and the potency of the barrage. That way it would have remained unique while also being used.

I used the barrage against AT-gun walls and MGs...How would you even attempt to use it against mobile infantry? It's completely impossible.

I am sure that the 0.5 accuracy penalty applies on many JT shots because as I said and is obvious from stats the gun traverse is so much worse than on the Ele. That makes it rotate more. That is the only explanation that I can think off regarding why it misses so many more shots than the Elefant despite having better accuracy stats.

Breakthrough is bad compared to both Ele doctrines. That's what I mean when I said JT is a Ele clone stuck in a bad doctrine. I should have used "worse" instead, I admit that.
11 Sep 2019, 14:32 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13654 | Subs: 6



Old JT was shit, that's why it wasn't used. But instead of making it viable they just turned it into an Ele clone. Extremely boring IMO. Yes it has slightly more survivability but the difference is insignificant in most situations. What other major differences are there? Easiest solution would have been to keep the JT as it was but improve aim time and the potency of the barrage. That way it would have remained unique while also being used.

It was always going to be bullshit unit as long as it had more range then longest range immobile anti tank gun.

I used the barrage against AT-gun walls and MGs...How would you even attempt to use it against mobile infantry? It's completely impossible.

What makes you think that any long range barrage would be effective against any mobile unit?

I am sure that the 0.5 accuracy penalty applies on many JT shots because as I said and is obvious from stats the gun traverse is so much worse than on the Ele. That makes it rotate more. That is the only explanation that I can think off regarding why it misses so many more shots than the Elefant despite having better accuracy stats.

It can't shoot when it moves, therefore 0.5 moving accuracy never applies.

Breakthrough is bad compared to both Ele doctrines. That's what I mean when I said JT is a Ele clone stuck in a bad doctrine. I should have used "worse" instead, I admit that.

You're going to ignore the fact that okw stock rooster is arguably better then ost one?
The one thing that Ele doctrine has that breakthrough doesn't is counter to Eles counter, arty erasing combo.
11 Sep 2019, 14:34 PM
#26
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3891

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2019, 14:32 PMKatitof

You're going to ignore the fact that okw stock rooster is arguably better then ost one?
The one thing that Ele doctrine has that breakthrough doesn't is counter to Eles counter, arty erasing combo.
and spotting scopes and plane recon
11 Sep 2019, 14:35 PM
#27
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1253



you mean like the 17pounder got a time -pak43-modus? as nondoc unit?

why brit players made it easy and switche factions?

or why usf got t0 mortar?

any heard from balance? ISU can handle both targets types easily...while is cheaper and has same range. is more mobile and is not useless when enemy park armor until he has enough to overrun you



If you goal was to prove how little you know about the ISU and how it works, you've succeeded brilliantly. I use both the ISU and JT regularly. The ISU's rate of fire makes it bad against Panthers, Tigers, etc. It isn't a good TD, certainly not as good as getting 2 SU-85's. It needs a larger support army than a JT because it dies easily if someone can dive even a P4 in behind it. I can't remember the last time I lost a JT. I've lost a couple ISU's in the last week when people were able to strip away enough of its support using arty and/or skill planes.

I'm not excited about the change to the JT but will play it before saying anything about it.

11 Sep 2019, 14:38 PM
#28
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1430

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2019, 14:32 PMKatitof



You're going to ignore the fact that okw stock rooster is arguably better then ost one?
The one thing that Ele doctrine has that breakthrough doesn't is counter to Eles counter, arty erasing combo.




Which tech allows me to build these guys???
11 Sep 2019, 14:39 PM
#29
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13654 | Subs: 6





Twich tech allows me to build these guys???

Yes, exactly that.
You all bunch of chickens.
11 Sep 2019, 14:43 PM
#30
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3891



If you goal was to prove how little you know about the ISU and how it works, you've succeeded brilliantly. I use both the ISU and JT regularly. The ISU's rate of fire makes it bad against Panthers, Tigers, etc. It isn't a good TD, certainly not as good as getting 2 SU-85's. It needs a larger support army than a JT because it dies easily if someone can dive even a P4 in behind it. I can't remember the last time I lost a JT. I've lost a couple ISU's in the last week when people were able to strip away enough of its support using arty and/or skill planes.

I'm not excited about the change to the JT but will play it before saying anything about it.

isu reload is 10 JT reload is 9


yes 2 su 85 will be better than a JT too (as they deal 320 damage but much faster dire rate)

isu has more rear armor tho and speed too
11 Sep 2019, 15:30 PM
#31
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1253

isu reload is 10 JT reload is 9


yes 2 su 85 will be better than a JT too (as they deal 320 damage but much faster dire rate)

isu has more rear armor tho and speed too


If you think two SU-85's have more of an impact than a JT then you've gone completely loony.

Also, why do you keep infatuating on rear armor? Newsflash - if the other side is shooting at the rear of either an ISU or a JT, then you messed up.
11 Sep 2019, 15:36 PM
#32
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3891



If you think two SU-85's have more of an impact than a JT then you've gone completely loony.

Also, why do you keep infatuating on rear armor? Newsflash - if the other side is shooting at the rear of either an ISU or a JT, then you messed up.
so 2 su-85 have more impact than a ISU-152 but less than a JT or elefant mhhhh (both will kill medium in 3 hit, only vs very heavy there is some difference but isu has deflection damage)
it's like u are saying isu is UP :luvDerp:



If you goal was to prove how little you know about the ISU and how it works, you've succeeded brilliantly. I use both the ISU and JT regularly. The ISU's rate of fire makes it bad against Panthers, Tigers, etc. It isn't a good TD, certainly not as good as getting 2 SU-85's. It needs a larger support army than a JT because it dies easily if someone can dive even a P4 in behind it. I can't remember the last time I lost a JT. I've lost a couple ISU's in the last week when people were able to strip away enough of its support using arty and/or skill planes.

when some tank flank u what's important ?
why is elfeant or jt better vs a flanking tank than a isu if it's slower and have worse rear armor ?

why would diving jt or ele be harder than isu ?
11 Sep 2019, 15:41 PM
#33
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3088 | Subs: 1


it isnt this hard when u flank it with some t34 and ramm it or use mother russia and satchel it....not this hard when u play smart...

Well there is your problem! Try learning how to play the game instead of holding out for wunderwaffe to win it for you. Lay a mine? Have an infantry screen. There is no reason aside from being out played that a t34 and pile of infantry should be getting at your 70 range TD. Do you also suffer from infantry constantly knocking out your arty with small arms perhaps?
11 Sep 2019, 15:47 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6204 | Subs: 1



If you goal was to prove how little you know about the ISU and how it works, you've succeeded brilliantly. I use both the ISU and JT regularly. The ISU's rate of fire makes it bad against Panthers, Tigers, etc. It isn't a good TD, certainly not as good as getting 2 SU-85's. It needs a larger support army than a JT because it dies easily if someone can dive even a P4 in behind it. I can't remember the last time I lost a JT. I've lost a couple ISU's in the last week when people were able to strip away enough of its support using arty and/or skill planes.

I'm not excited about the change to the JT but will play it before saying anything about it.


That is simply untrue, a ISU-152 has 155 rear vs 110 for JT or ELe.

A PzIV vs ISU-152 firing at rear/side armor 30/0 range has 70%/80% to penetrate.
A T-34/76 firing at rear/side armor 30/0 range has 72%/100% to penetrate.

While T-34/76 is cheaper fast and can ram.
11 Sep 2019, 15:49 PM
#35
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1430


Well there is your problem! Try learning how to play the game instead of holding out for wunderwaffe to win it for you. Lay a mine? Have an infantry screen. There is no reason aside from being out played that a t34 and pile of infantry should be getting at your 70 range TD. Do you also suffer from infantry constantly knocking out your arty with small arms perhaps?


That's silly. There is no way you will always have enough units in front of a JT to kill a ramming T34. AT-guns will do nothing because unless you have 4 of them they cant kill the T34 fast enough. It's also not realistic to have every single inch of the map covered up with mines.

I understand a lot of legit arguments against OKW units being too good (like old Command Panther for example) but trying to somehow make JT look like it's too good or easy to use is just stupid. JTs were never used in 1v1 and 2v2 and only very rarely in 3v3 and 4v4. There is a reason for that.

The changes made the JT easier to use so there is a chance it will be used more often now but at the same time I also feel the balance approach was very lazy and made the game more boring because it reduced the few existing differences between JT and Ele even more.
11 Sep 2019, 15:54 PM
#36
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 109

What is ele's range again? Did a quick test and JT still outranges ele by an inch, but seems less accurate.
11 Sep 2019, 15:55 PM
#37
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1430

They both have the same range. (70)

Regarding the accuracy, I have the same experience with the JT. It misses far too often.
11 Sep 2019, 16:08 PM
#38
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 109

They both have the same range. (70)

Regarding the accuracy, I have the same experience with the JT. It misses far too often.


Doesn't seem to be the case, note that I lined up the end of their barrels, the hull of the elephant is more forward.


The pings indicate their max range (ground attack).


I made them duel, the JT clearly outranged the Ele.
11 Sep 2019, 16:47 PM
#39
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1886 | Subs: 3

Regarding the accuracy, I have the same experience with the JT. It misses far too often.


Accuracy on JT is now 0.06/0.05/0.035.
Elefant has 0.055/0.045/0.03.

Considering neither can fire on the move and thus do not have movement accuracy penalties, the Jagdtiger is definitely more accurate on paper (and should be in the game obviously).
11 Sep 2019, 16:58 PM
#40
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 109



Accuracy on JT is now 0.06/0.05/0.035.
Elefant has 0.055/0.045/0.03.

Considering neither can fire on the move and thus do not have movement accuracy penalties, the Jagdtiger is definitely more accurate on paper (and should be in the game obviously).


Well, the range is identical on paper too but doesn't seem to be the case as seen above.
But I would be ok with the current state of JT to stay, longer range but less accurate.
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