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Thoughts on OKWs Flak Half Track

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26 Aug 2019, 17:21 PM
#1
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I do not know if you guys experience or feel the same way I do about the Flak Half Track.

Shorter summary here instead


Skip the rest the lined ones if you want.

Currently, I feel it purely sucks as a consistent or even as a proper unit as a whole due to several reasons.



- From vet 0 until 2, it is really performs poorly. It consistently misses which makes it hard to even provide proper support and kills. Its accuracy is simply bad especially its dps. Thus, it is even difficult to acquire vet.

You can count on it as purely an HMG at vet 0 and 1. I would simply get myself a MG34 instead because of how it actually performs. No real reason getting yourself at all a Flak Half Track honestly.


- Huge problem, it only performs well when it reaches Vet 2. Why you may ask?

Because that is actually when it even begins to perform even consistently, accurately. Becomes actually supportive and provides kills.

Vet 2 provides damage, accuracy and surpression increase altogether lol. Accuracy should be something it is good at from the very beginning. Instead, you have to really get Vet 2 in order to properly rely on this unit, or unitl you actually can consider even efficient enough.

Due to 1 thing it is actually missing from the beginning. Accuracy and Consistency which it does not even have in the beginning.


- Anything earlier than Vet 2, you can not rely on it at all. I feel it is simply an inconsistent performing unit. It just misses and hardly kills. Does 16 damage only per shot but the problem is, it scatters a lot. I mean a lot. It is as if only 20%-30% of its shots even register. I feel that it performs that poorly.

If you are lucky that the enemy infantry is hiding behind a tree :hansRNG:(yellow cover and clumped), that is only when it performs consistently when vet 0 and 1.

In any other case scenarios, you can bet it would be terrible.


- Vets slowly because of its sheer poor performance. Only from Vet 2 onwards, does it efficiently Vet. Biggest issue I believe.

For any unit, it has to has to at least perform consistently from the beginning. Not later. Especially for this particular kind of unit which is purely designed as AI support, which it simply fails at doing.




I feel the September changes for the FHT is rather lacking as it is a unit that I still think would be still inefficient.

Not to brag or anything, I simply prefer the USF AA Halftrack better since it remains as always efficient because of one simple fact, due to its consistency. Vets fast too for that very reason. It is better overall in my opinion.



The changes I feel should be:
Change its current Vet to make it more consistent in scaling and performance instead.

For Starters. Switch Vet 1 & Vet 2. See how it goes


Make it accurate and consistent is what I am asking for!

Currently, it is underwhelming.


What do you guys think about how the Flak Half Track currently performs?
26 Aug 2019, 17:26 PM
#2
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3003

I think its major problems stems from:

A: It must setup to fire, USF AAHT does not.

B: A full burst from the cannon cannot kill the M3A1 scout car, which allows for PTRS penals to easily approach and AT satchel it.

C: AEC counters it very well.

There isn't any good spot for it vs all allied factions. Why buy a mediocre HT when the luchs is a real wiping threat and more duarble and can fire on the move. There just isn't a reason to buy a suppression platform when the MG34 doesn't require specific tech. Plus mechanized also has the puma, which counters all light vehicle play and even some medium tanks.

Battlegroup is simply not good enough.
27 Aug 2019, 01:18 AM
#3
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 428

It isn't really any worse than the USF AAHT. The USF version has to drive backwards all the time making it a huge pain to micro manage and with it's rear exposed all the time it's vulnerable to most any vehciles and in fact dies in just two AT gun shots. It also seems to do a relatively poor job suppressing blobs for something that has 2 .50 cals and a 37mm autocannon.

So with that I don't see how the OKW flak HT is any worse since it gets 360 degree coverage, has a quick setup time, and gets smoke cover.
27 Aug 2019, 06:05 AM
#4
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1715

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Aug 2019, 01:18 AMCODGUY
It isn't really any worse than the USF AAHT. The USF version has to drive backwards all the time making it a huge pain to micro manage and with it's rear exposed all the time it's vulnerable to most any vehciles and in fact dies in just two AT gun shots. It also seems to do a relatively poor job suppressing blobs for something that has 2 .50 cals and a 37mm autocannon.

So with that I don't see how the OKW flak HT is any worse since it gets 360 degree coverage, has a quick setup time, and gets smoke cover.


uhm..whot? USF HT even suppress when moving...so u can kit any squad easily..while the OKW HT need luck to supress and must move (no more shooting) when a squad comes to near...USF ht only need move and has enough distance to suppress and kitting.

on top of this..USF is much more consistent and win mostly all fights until mediums hit the field. (even vs puma (often seen in high rank tournament games)) while the OKW ht is helpless vs any stuart, t70, AEC etc
27 Aug 2019, 15:48 PM
#5
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I think its major problems stems from:

A: It must setup to fire, USF AAHT does not.

B: A full burst from the cannon cannot kill the M3A1 scout car, which allows for PTRS penals to easily approach and AT satchel it.

C: AEC counters it very well.

There isn't any good spot for it vs all allied factions. Why buy a mediocre HT when the luchs is a real wiping threat and more duarble and can fire on the move. There just isn't a reason to buy a suppression platform when the MG34 doesn't require specific tech. Plus mechanized also has the puma, which counters all light vehicle play and even some medium tanks.

Battlegroup is simply not good enough.


That is too true. It is simply not good.


If I am not mistaken. The Devs or Relic have nerfed the Flak Half Track into a state which I would simply consider as useless now. That was a change that I believed was not even thought through properly.

Before, it was an option, yet to an extent somewhat viable and still difficult to handle due to its timing and vulnerability.

Now after the absurd nerf, it is simply impossible to use it even practically. Since its current accuracy and damage has been nerfed. The only thing you get out of this unit is simply losing that manpower and fuel for nothing.

Gosh, even the overall DPS has changed drastically into a worse state than before. It cant even handle lights vehicles and more so now even infantry. USF Halftrack can easily handle and do both areas.

The Flak Half Track is just really the worst light vehicle currently in game. It is simply not viable. That is why.



The September patch change for Flak Half Track overall is simply a joke. It is simply useless and frustrating to even use. Currently, it is not even worth it overall.

Gets countered too easily and cant even handle its designated role properly. It is just terribly designed as of now in its current state.

People ask for nerf, then this unit is just left in the ditch to be forgotten because nobody cares since Luchs is just another option instead. It is simply terrible balancing is all I can say about this work done on this unit.

It just was simply better before, it simply was viable before, now it is just not.

They should improve it to a state similarly to how it used to be. That is the fix it needs to have in order to make it viable again.

Currently, the only thing that is useful only in Med base is just the LEIG & Infrared Halftrack (both mostly used in team games only). All in all, Med Base Battlegroup is simply not a practical choice in some game other modes.

Really in poor state of gameplay and terms of viability. It needs some improvements and changes.
27 Aug 2019, 16:45 PM
#6
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1837

Additionally to the patch preview changes, I would do something like this:

- Vet 2 bonusses moved to Vet 0
- Vet 3 bonus (better mobility) moved to Vet 2
- Vet 3 now grants +40 hitpoints and a tiny bit more armor protection
- fuel cost reverted from 50 to 55
27 Aug 2019, 16:50 PM
#7
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Additionally to the patch preview changes, I would do something like this:

- Vet 2 bonusses moved to Vet 0
- Vet 3 bonus (better mobility) moved to Vet 2
- Vet 3 now grants +40 hitpoints
- fuel cost reverted from 50 to 55


I totally agree.


It should be already good from the start. Not later or begin performing consistently later where it sucks from the start.


Vet 2 should be moved to Vet 0. Flak Half Track has to be simply good and viable. Devs really need to fix this mistake.


To make it viable and to be scale even later on.
27 Aug 2019, 16:54 PM
#8
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 237

Also as a sidenote it continues to drift into enemy when starting to set up. I mean it starts setting up at max range but drifts into enemy snare range by the time it finishes the set up.
27 Aug 2019, 19:23 PM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2870 | Subs: 1

Additionally to the patch preview changes, I would do something like this:

- Vet 2 bonusses moved to Vet 0
- Vet 3 bonus (better mobility) moved to Vet 2
- Vet 3 now grants +40 hitpoints and a tiny bit more armor protection
- fuel cost reverted from 50 to 55

I like those changes. That's a signature from me
27 Aug 2019, 21:55 PM
#10
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Aug 2019, 16:54 PMJilet
Also as a sidenote it continues to drift into enemy when starting to set up. I mean it starts setting up at max range but drifts into enemy snare range by the time it finishes the set up.


It only happens when you use "Attack mode" key which is assigned to "q" I believe, then it just drifts towards the path of suicide.

Best not to use that key for this unit, in fact, do not even use the FHT at all for that matter.

Flak Half Track is undeniably both buggy and shitty in its current state.
27 Aug 2019, 22:29 PM
#11
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 907

I think the flack HT is in a pretty good now (perhaps not "in a pretty good spot) right now. I frankly find it better than the luchs as it suppresses from long range and doesnt have to get as close (and run into a mine or at) to do dmg.

It is less vulnerable to AT penal than the luchs. It can see them coming, take a volley of ptrs and suppress the penal and fall back a bit. Then a volk can go forward and force the retreat with a flame nade, then the track can come back.

The only problem is that going it pretty much necessitates at least 2 raks to fend off an AEC/t70 and not getting a puma. Pumas a pretty god-tier so going flack instead of it is a big downside of the Flack HT.
28 Aug 2019, 14:27 PM
#12
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1715

OKW HT gets a little bit to big nerf.
compared with similar units its underperforming cause it needs to stay has low armor and less accu, less dmg and the same suppression
28 Aug 2019, 19:39 PM
#13
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

OKW HT gets a little bit to big nerf.
compared with similar units its underperforming cause it needs to stay has low armor and less accu, less dmg and the same suppression


The one thing I do not understand, why was it nerfed in the first place?

It was already in a difficult situation and it was doing just fine. It was not OP or even performing at a state which could not even be countered.


They nerfed the accuracy, damage, suppression, scatter, just nerfed everything into a state which is simply now impossible to even use properly.

Before it was possible to use although it was still in a tough and sticky situation.

Now as it currently is, I do not even know how it is supposed to make do with it all of it being simply in a terrible and frustrating position. The FHT can not even handle infantry properly at all , not even lights, not one thing except all its good at is AA.


Just a waste of 300 manpower and 55 fuel is all I can say. Really a terrible unit to invest in currently, considering its performance of the unit is just overstated. NEEDS FIXING.

Even if it were 50 fuel, still wont make any difference.

It is the Performance that really needs changes!
28 Aug 2019, 20:16 PM
#14
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1298



The one thing I do not understand, why was it nerfed in the first place?

It was already in a difficult situation and it was doing just fine. It was not OP or even performing at a state which could not even be countered.


They nerfed the accuracy, damage, suppression, scatter, just nerfed everything into a state which is simply now impossible to even use properly.

Before it was possible to use although it was still in a tough and sticky situation.

Now as it currently is, I do not even know how it is supposed to make do with it all of it being simply in a terrible and frustrating position. The FHT can not even handle infantry properly at all , not even lights, not one thing except all its good at is AA.


Just a waste of 300 manpower and 55 fuel is all I can say. Really a terrible unit to invest in currently, considering its performance of the unit is just overstated. NEEDS FIXING.

Even if it were 50 fuel, still wont make any difference.

It is the Performance that really needs changes!


There's a lot of exaggeration imo. Its a good unit in a bad tier. The problem of the flak HT are mostly tied to BG HQ, not the unit itself

Idk what to do about it, but its not an unusable unit as you suggest. I get good use out of it in 2s, but you definitely need to coordinate with your teammate to make sure bghq choice doest hurt you, which stinks

28 Aug 2019, 21:45 PM
#15
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783



There's a lot of exaggeration imo. Its a good unit in a bad tier. The problem of the flak HT are mostly tied to BG HQ, not the unit itself

Idk what to do about it, but its not an unusable unit as you suggest. I get good use out of it in 2s, but you definitely need to coordinate with your teammate to make sure bghq choice doest hurt you, which stinks



The problem is its consistent performance. It has troubles from doing that from vet 0 until it reaches vet 2.

It just does not do well enough in terms of supporting, killing and suppressing. It does not qualify as a good unit due to its inital performance.


What bugs me a lot at the moment is its accuracy mid and long range. It misses too frequently. Cant properly lead nor even damage properly. Really frustrating.

All other AI vehicles can consistently do that (damaging and leading its shots properly) from the start except the FHT.



I am fine with the nerf in surpression but not the accuracy and scatter which is the biggest issue in my opinion. It already has the consequence of being still and having to set up. It just suffers more than it can actually provide.

Vet 2 actually fixes all its issue into performing more consistently and becomes evidently more reliable. Vet 2 provides, accuracy (which its huge problem cuz its very lacking), damage and surpression.

Anything before Vet 2, performs just too poorly I must say. When it performs poorly, it is also really hard to achieve veterancy.
WeX
29 Aug 2019, 05:13 AM
#16
avatar of WeX

Posts: 25

Additionally to the patch preview changes, I would do something like this:

- Vet 2 bonusses moved to Vet 0
- Vet 3 bonus (better mobility) moved to Vet 2
- Vet 3 now grants +40 hitpoints and a tiny bit more armor protection
- fuel cost reverted from 50 to 55


Good changes. I think it should just have a bit more armor so small arms aren't so threatening. Maybe even a bit more penetration against light vehicles as well.
29 Aug 2019, 06:21 AM
#17
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1715

lets compare it with a bofors (since it need to setup before can shot it works like an emplacement which is mobile):

cons:
- OKW ht cost more
- it has MUCH less dmg
- same suppression
- has very low suriveabilty compared to bofors
- cant fire indirect shells
- cant embrace
- cant deal with mediums and dont kills instant models like the bofors (which seems way to accurate)

pro:
- is mobile
- has better AA
29 Aug 2019, 07:17 AM
#18
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13230 | Subs: 6

lets compare it with a bofors (since it need to setup before can shot it works like an emplacement which is mobile):

cons:
- OKW ht cost more
- it has MUCH less dmg
- same suppression
- has very low suriveabilty compared to bofors
- cant fire indirect shells
- cant embrace
- cant deal with mediums and dont kills instant models like the bofors (which seems way to accurate)

pro:
- is mobile
- has better AA

You forgot about couple and couple other you got completely wrong, so let me help you:

-has high survivability due to smoke
-doesn't block any other unit permanently if you go for it
-is cheap
-actually shoots planes down
-actually got MUCH MORE DAMAGE(compared to current preview)
-is mobile, so its completely immune to threats that easily destroy bofors, like mortars

And if bofors is killing your mediums, you've reached level of horribly bad player that transcended stats.
29 Aug 2019, 07:44 AM
#19
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 166

I think shifting vet2 boni around would cause new and more problems for this unit, same goes for the P2 which is kinda weak until it reaches vet2. The rather late full combat effectiveness stops them from completely dominating the field if the enemy is a bit late with own tech or did a stupid tech decision.
The biggest problem this unit has since the last time it got used regulary is that the supression was halfed, while I don't think this change should get completely reverted, it seems as a little supression buff (maybe by 1.3-1.6 times the current supression) could help this unit to be a keypart of an army that can support and needs to get supported.
29 Aug 2019, 08:11 AM
#20
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1715

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2019, 07:17 AMKatitof

You forgot about couple and couple other you got completely wrong, so let me help you:

-has high survivability due to smoke
-doesn't block any other unit permanently if you go for it
-is cheap
-actually shoots planes down
-actually got MUCH MORE DAMAGE(compared to current preview)
-is mobile, so its completely immune to threats that easily destroy bofors, like mortars

And if bofors is killing your mediums, you've reached level of horribly bad player that transcended stats.


- has high surviveabilty? it must smoke and retreat after the first salve from a ptrs...after the sec it would be destroyed. any light vehicle has easy play vs HT.
- bofors can stay there and will punisch even mediums to deal with it alone
- HT is actually expansive compared to a cheap bofors
- ht has much more dmg than bofors?? are u kidding? or only dumb?
- mortars needs ages to detroy a bofors...in this time you can build 2 IS and do something against them
- bofors can be setup in 4.min and look down every area very easy...especially in team games...
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