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Why USF so bad in tournaments?

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21 Aug 2019, 15:53 PM
#121
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2398 | Subs: 22

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:50 PMRiley


I hope you understand that you made a mistake by choosing the USF several times in the Masters Cup. I don’t know what you wanted to prove with such a risky step.

I wanted to see if it was possible to win with them in the current patch. Sadly that was not the case
21 Aug 2019, 15:56 PM
#122
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 156



If your Rifles always lose to Volks, the problem is you, and not the Rifles.


Man, you've really been on a poor roll of comments lately in regards to balance. You're constantly defending axis, especially OKW when everyone agrees they overperform by miles. OKW are loaded to the gills with side grades and their cost effectiveness really drives the nail into USF. You can kill more volk models and still lose that trade, isnt that why your balance team is making those changes?

Volks have been better than riflemen for awhile sanders, youre way off base with this one.
21 Aug 2019, 15:57 PM
#123
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 201 | Subs: 1

Me and devm talked briefly about it, but i think it just comes down to a main core issue, rifles can't trade. it pretty much pigeonholes you into an mechanized army, hopefully the coming rifle buffs fixes things but i have a feeling it might make the faction extremely strong, as most the vehicles usf has is really strong, and in tandem with really strong early game rifles might become OP. Though it will remain to be seen.

Although i'd definitely nerf bars if rifles get buffed, from what little i've played the damage they can do early game is pretty strong which might become absurd combined with the bar wiping power.
21 Aug 2019, 15:59 PM
#124
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129



1) It was an isolated point. The LMG42 is stronger than the 1919, because it replaces a stronger rifle.
2) And that's why 1919 Riflemen perform better than LMG42 Grenadiers.
3) My point is: 1919 Riflemen have the possibility to scale further with BAR, LMG42 Grens don't.

The 1919 upgrade is fine, I can give you ingame tests and a full comparison between all the stats if you want, but you could just take my word on it. The problem is that the 1919 comes in okay-ish doctrines which have abilities that are in much more need of a buff than the 1919. For example:

- M5, comes too late at 3 CP to have an impact.
- P-47 suppression strafe, extremely overpriced compared to the Ostheer strafe equivalent.
- Time on Target, one of the slowest arty strikes ingame, only useful to destroy OKW bases.


- That is, USF to pay 40 more manpower.
- Then to choose a doctrine
- Must wait 2 or 3 sp
- Must pay 70 muni for m1919
- Buy weapon racks for additional manpower and fuel.
- Buy a bar for 60 munis.

All this I have to do so that the Riflemans could be more productive against greens for 240 mp?

I repeat, the Riflemans + m1919 hardly save one model in a shootout with grenadiers + mg34. Is this a balance?
21 Aug 2019, 15:59 PM
#125
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2827

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:44 PMRiley
I say this. In a shootout with the grenadiers, the riflemans hardly have one model left.


At what range? With what cover? What veterancy? How many times did you test this?

CoH has a lot of variables, and outside of hard counters it's pretty rare you can boil it down to X beats Y.

The game is a lot more nuanced than that.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:59 PMRiley
I repeat, the Riflemans + m1919 hardly save one model in a shootout with grenadiers + mg34. Is this a balance?


That's because slot weapons do a shitload more damage than basic rifles. That battle is less Rifles vs Grens and more M1919 vs LMG42. A similar thing happens if you put LMG RETs against LMG Grens: the Grens usually win but not by much.
21 Aug 2019, 16:02 PM
#126
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:53 PMVonIvan

I wanted to see if it was possible to win with them in the current patch. Sadly that was not the case


:D:D
21 Aug 2019, 16:16 PM
#127
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1025 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:59 PMRiley

- That is, USF to pay 40 more manpower.
- Then to choose a doctrine
- Must wait 2 or 3 sp
- Must pay 70 muni for m1919


That's 1 point I agree with, the 1919 should be 2 CP instead of 3 CP, so they have similar timing as the LMG42. Their performance/cost is fine however. Yes, 1919 Rifles beat LMG42 Grens at all ranges.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:59 PMRiley

- Buy weapon racks for additional manpower and fuel.
- Buy a bar for 60 munis.


This is completely optional and lets your 1919 Rifles outscale LMG42 Grenadiers.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:59 PMRiley

All this I have to do so that the Riflemans could be more productive against greens for 240 mp?


Riflemen pricing has a reason, they get a free officer squad with teching.
21 Aug 2019, 16:28 PM
#128
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2827

That's 1 point I agree with, the 1919 should be 2 CP instead of 3 CP, so they have similar timing as the LMG42. Their performance/cost is fine however. Yes, 1919 Rifles beat LMG42 Grens at all ranges.


That'd be a pretty hefty buff.

Then again, it's not like Infantry Company/Tactical Support Company are especially competitive, and RET strats got blown out of the water by the Assgren buffs.

So maybe a hefty buff for the better?
21 Aug 2019, 16:31 PM
#129
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1985

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:53 PMVonIvan

I wanted to see if it was possible to win with them in the current patch. Sadly that was not the case


well, definitely not if someone picks a doctrine just for a single squad of cavalry riflemen :D
21 Aug 2019, 16:37 PM
#130
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2398 | Subs: 22



well, definitely not if someone picks a doctrine just for a single squad of cavalry riflemen :D

It was a 2v2 test strat I had formulated with Bao, amassing as many upgraded rifles as possible. You can get Cav rifles faster than bar rifles and save fuel, getting more than one or a jeep isnt cost efficient. All other usf docs are mid late game focused
21 Aug 2019, 17:39 PM
#131
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1025 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 16:28 PMLago

That'd be a pretty hefty buff.

Then again, it's not like Infantry Company/Tactical Support Company are especially competitive, and RET strats got blown out of the water by the Assgren buffs.

So maybe a hefty buff for the better?


I think it could be experimented with. Against Ostheer, 2 CP doesn't seem overly impactful, considering Ostheer players often get their first LMG42 around the 1,5 CP mark. OKW would have to find a proper answer quite early though.

Someone should ask Tightrope what he thinks, he likes to do 1919 strats, so he'd have a good idea of how strong 2 CP timing would be.
21 Aug 2019, 17:49 PM
#132
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3297 | Subs: 1

Me and devm talked briefly about it, but i think it just comes down to a main core issue, rifles can't trade. it pretty much pigeonholes you into an mechanized army, hopefully the coming rifle buffs fixes things but i have a feeling it might make the faction extremely strong, as most the vehicles usf has is really strong, and in tandem with really strong early game rifles might become OP. Though it will remain to be seen.

Although i'd definitely nerf bars if rifles get buffed, from what little i've played the damage they can do early game is pretty strong which might become absurd combined with the bar wiping power.


Careful sir, #USFNEVEROP will come and smite thee
21 Aug 2019, 18:08 PM
#133
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2052 | Subs: 3

Man, you've really been on a poor roll of comments lately in regards to balance. You're constantly defending axis, especially OKW when everyone agrees they overperform by miles. OKW are loaded to the gills with side grades and their cost effectiveness really drives the nail into USF. You can kill more volk models and still lose that trade, isnt that why your balance team is making those changes?


You misinterpet. I was not defending anything, I was merely commenting that it was incorrect to blatantly state that Riflemen always lose to Volksgrenadiers. They do not. They will usually win close and medium range, they can win in long range cover fights, and they will usually lose if they have to close in on Volks behind cover. If you read my one sentence carefully, you'll note that I didn't draw any further conclusions, or commented about whether or not that's balanced. I merely stated the fact that in the current matchup, Rifles will not always lose to Volks, and that if they do, then it's player error.
ddd
21 Aug 2019, 21:54 PM
#134
avatar of ddd

Posts: 527 | Subs: 1



Riflemen pricing has a reason, they get a free officer squad with teching.


Can you stop with this bullshit? OKW has free weapon upgrades and grenades and shwerer, OST has free weapon upgrades and grenades, if free officer is such a problem for USF, change it for free grenades and weapon upgrades. It will be a buff.
21 Aug 2019, 23:01 PM
#135
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1025 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 21:54 PMddd


Can you stop with this bullshit? OKW has free weapon upgrades and grenades and shwerer, OST has free weapon upgrades and grenades, if free officer is such a problem for USF, change it for free grenades and weapon upgrades. It will be a buff.


Then nerf weapon racks to only give 1 BAR max. : ))))
ddd
21 Aug 2019, 23:09 PM
#136
avatar of ddd

Posts: 527 | Subs: 1



Then nerf weapon racks to only give 1 BAR max. : ))))


Why? Its a feature of USF faction, if we nerf weapon racks to only 1 BAR then give USF non doctrinal heavy tank and rocket arty. We can go like this all day.
22 Aug 2019, 10:03 AM
#137
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2827

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 21:54 PMddd
if free officer is such a problem for USF, change it for free grenades and weapon upgrades. It will be a buff.


It really, really won't. I'm not sure you appreciate the value of getting a 300 MP infantry squad for a 200 MP tech.

USF would be utterly crippled without it.
22 Aug 2019, 10:45 AM
#138
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2621 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Aug 2019, 10:03 AMLago


It really, really won't. I'm not sure you appreciate the value of getting a 300 MP infantry squad for a 200 MP tech.

USF would be utterly crippled without it.


What you say is interesting because I don't see other factions being utterly crippled without their stuff being free. Not saying they wouldn't be facing issues but not at that level.

Seeing officers as mandatory free otherwise the faction collapse is imo a game design issue.

22 Aug 2019, 11:06 AM
#139
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2827

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Aug 2019, 10:45 AMEsxile
What you say is interesting because I don't see other factions being utterly crippled without their stuff being free. Not saying they wouldn't be facing issues but not at that level.

Seeing officers as mandatory free otherwise the faction collapse is imo a game design issue.


If you remove the Officer, that's a 300 manpower swing very early in the game.

You'd need to make up the difference somewhere else. Swapping it out for the grenade unlock does not make up the difference.
ddd
22 Aug 2019, 11:50 AM
#140
avatar of ddd

Posts: 527 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Aug 2019, 11:06 AMLago


If you remove the Officer, that's a 300 manpower swing very early in the game.

You'd need to make up the difference somewhere else. Swapping it out for the grenade unlock does not make up the difference.


Its 280mp and you would get free weapon racks and nades (300mp). Since you dont need to factor in officer squad, you can open with 4 rifles without murdering upkeep. Thats a buff.
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