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Why USF so bad in tournaments?

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20 Aug 2019, 12:02 PM
#101
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 250

Why does assualt engineers work better than riflemen as a starting unit?
21 Aug 2019, 02:49 AM
#102
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 548

Why does assualt engineers work better than riflemen as a starting unit?


Better starting RA, better vet 1, and better DPS. They'll get rolled by luchs/222 though, and they scale worse into late-game, so I really wouldn't depend on them as a riflemen replacement.
21 Aug 2019, 02:55 AM
#103
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 610

The late game manpower problems are related to the badly designed tech tree and poor quality and preformance of Riflemen. Riflemen cannot 1v1 any OKW unit between Strums and Volks and you have no support units until teching to CPT or LT so you have to spam and blob them which kills your manpower and available pop. It's really a crap situation and OKW gets to walk all over you at the start of the game then murder you with superior units late game they were able to buy from their map control.
21 Aug 2019, 03:00 AM
#104
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 548

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 02:55 AMCODGUY
The late game manpower problems are related to the badly designed tech tree and poor quality and preformance of Riflemen. Riflemen cannot 1v1 any OKW unit between Strums and Volks and you have no support units until teching to CPT or LT so you have to spam and blob them which kills your manpower and available pop. It's really a crap situation and OKW gets to walk all over you at the start of the game then murder you with superior units late game they were able to buy from their map control.


I think the riflemen short range dps buff combined with the (admittedly miniscule) volks price nerf will solidify a slight 1v1 edge for riflemen versus OKW, but in general I just think you have to tech nades if you want to deal with OKW blobbing without sacrificing map control completely. Tried it once and killed a fuckton of volks with nades, though I admittedly lost that match.
21 Aug 2019, 03:39 AM
#105
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 610



I think the riflemen short range dps buff combined with the (admittedly miniscule) volks price nerf will solidify a slight 1v1 edge for riflemen versus OKW, but in general I just think you have to tech nades if you want to deal with OKW blobbing without sacrificing map control completely. Tried it once and killed a fuckton of volks with nades, though I admittedly lost that match.


I rarely tech to grenades and when I do it's almost always when I'm floating extra man power and fuel. I feel like they're too big of a risk. If your opponent is not paying attention and you can wipe a Volks sqaud or two then side teching is worth it but if they're paying attention then it's just wasted munitions and fuel that further delays your teching.

I do hope the Riflemen buff works out. It doesn't sound like OKW really is getting much of a nerf but we'll see.
21 Aug 2019, 07:44 AM
#106
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2074 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 02:55 AMCODGUY
Riflemen cannot 1v1 any OKW unit between Strums and Volks


If your Rifles always lose to Volks, the problem is you, and not the Rifles.
21 Aug 2019, 08:32 AM
#107
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2646 | Subs: 1



If your Rifles always lose to Volks, the problem is you, and not the Rifles.


O maybe the sandbag, o maybe the flamnade, o maybe the STG coming much earlier than BARs o maybe a combo of all of that.
21 Aug 2019, 12:12 PM
#108
avatar of blancat

Posts: 640



If your Rifles always lose to Volks, the problem is you, and not the Rifles.



or maybe u dont play USF
21 Aug 2019, 12:16 PM
#109
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 360

VS OKW as USF.
>> Go rifles (as always)
>> Take the M1919 doctrine
>> Profit.
21 Aug 2019, 12:48 PM
#110
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:16 PMJilet
VS OKW as USF.
>> Go rifles (as always)
>> Take the M1919 doctrine
>> Profit.


m1919 (doctrine) worse than (standart) lmg mg34. So, the Ostheer is always a profit? :)

And m1919 available only 2cp or 3cp such as elite infantry. Therefore there is no profit. Again only riflemans vs stuprmioners and volks behind sandbags.

And actually it's funny how the USF has to choose a doctrine to withstand the opening game of the OKW.
21 Aug 2019, 13:04 PM
#111
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4116

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:48 PMRiley


m1919 (doctrine) worse than (standart) lmg mg34. So, the Ostheer is always a profit? :)

And m1919 available only 2cp or 3cp such as elite infantry. Therefore there is no profit. Again only riflemans vs stuprmioners and volks behind sandbags.

And actually it's funny how the USF has to choose a doctrine to withstand the opening game of the OKW.
u already got proven wrong in the other thread, rilfe + lmg are 23 % better than gren + lmg, but i guess u can't go back on ur propaganda :snfPeter:
21 Aug 2019, 13:37 PM
#112
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129

u already got proven wrong in the other thread, rilfe + lmg are 23 % better than gren + lmg, but i guess u can't go back on ur propaganda :snfPeter:


And you wanted differently? To the infantry for 240 destroyed the infantry for 280mp? Which even more expensive weapons?

However, these 23% end up in one surviving rifleman model. But this is only without vet. With 1 Vet, the rifleman lose. Less cost - more productivity.

If m1919 is profit, then mg32 is even greater profit, because it
- cheaper
- more powerful (more dps)
- and is not a doctrine

But don’t be very nervous :)
21 Aug 2019, 14:05 PM
#113
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1025 | Subs: 1

It's not hard to understand:

- Grens have slightly stronger Kar98k's (far range), but only 4 of them.
- Riflemen have slightly weaker M1 Garands, but 5 of them.

Therefore, the LMG42 should be slightly stronger than the 1919, because it replaces a slightly stronger rifle. Even then, the difference in performance is miniscule and it balances out in the end.

1919 Riflemen turn into a very capable long range squad, because of their low vet 3 RA, extra model and the possibility to equip a BAR alongside their 1919.
21 Aug 2019, 14:20 PM
#114
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129

It's not hard to understand:

"Even then, the difference in performance is miniscule and it balances out in the end"



but riflemans cost 280mp and grens 240mp. usf (doctrine) lmg - 70 muni, ostheer - 60 muni.

Exactly, they are almost the same in performance, but Oster pay much less for this and should not choose a doctrine for this. Is this called balance?
21 Aug 2019, 14:28 PM
#115
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14033 | Subs: 7

It's not hard to understand:

- Grens have slightly stronger Kar98k's (far range), but only 4 of them.
- Riflemen have slightly weaker M1 Garands, but 5 of them.

Therefore, the LMG42 should be slightly stronger than the 1919, because it replaces a slightly stronger rifle. Even then, the difference in performance is miniscule and it balances out in the end.

1919 Riflemen turn into a very capable long range squad, because of their low vet 3 RA, extra model and the possibility to equip a BAR alongside their 1919.


1) What you said doesn't make any sense, because rifles cost significantly more.
2) M1919 costs MORE then LMG42.
3) If you dump 120+ muni on a singular squad, it better be scaling well.
21 Aug 2019, 14:44 PM
#116
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:28 PMKatitof


1) What you said doesn't make any sense, because rifles cost significantly more.
2) M1919 costs MORE then LMG42.
3) If you dump 120+ muni on a singular squad, it better be scaling well.


I say this. In a shootout with the grenadiers, the riflemans hardly have one model left. And the difference in price is big - 40mp. This is the same if we can withstand the rear echelon for 200 mp against the grenadiers for 240.

while the echelon should have a rifle grenade, the best faust, and m1919 without a doctrine for 60 muni.
21 Aug 2019, 15:07 PM
#117
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2398 | Subs: 22

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:44 PMRiley


I say this. In a shootout with the grenadiers, the riflemans hardly have one model left. And the difference in price is big - 40mp. This is the same if we can withstand the rear echelon for 200 mp against the grenadiers for 240.

while the echelon should have a rifle grenade, the best faust, and m1919 without a doctrine for 60 muni.

Problem is riflemen medium/long range without weapon upgrades. Compare 280 rifles to 280 infantry sections. The sections have the long range to kite axis inf well or blob to counter
21 Aug 2019, 15:21 PM
#118
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 360

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:44 PMRiley


I say this. In a shootout with the grenadiers, the riflemans hardly have one model left. And the difference in price is big - 40mp. This is the same if we can withstand the rear echelon for 200 mp against the grenadiers for 240.

while the echelon should have a rifle grenade, the best faust, and m1919 without a doctrine for 60 muni.


Riley aren't you bored of constantly spamming rifleman is underperforming etc. ?
Their models are better than penals by a small margin and get better vet at the cost of 1 man and 20 mp less. Compare that to gren who is 4 man dies in the blink of an eye to any blast/explosion. If you are gonna continue your argument please continue with the volks not the grenadier. It is generally confirmed that cons and grens are underperforming compared to miracilous WFA mainlines.
21 Aug 2019, 15:21 PM
#119
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1025 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:28 PMKatitof


1) What you said doesn't make any sense, because rifles cost significantly more.
2) M1919 costs MORE then LMG42.
3) If you dump 120+ muni on a singular squad, it better be scaling well.


1) It was an isolated point. The LMG42 is stronger than the 1919, because it replaces a stronger rifle.
2) And that's why 1919 Riflemen perform better than LMG42 Grenadiers.
3) My point is: 1919 Riflemen have the possibility to scale further with BAR, LMG42 Grens don't.

The 1919 upgrade is fine, I can give you ingame tests and a full comparison between all the stats if you want, but you could just take my word on it. The problem is that the 1919 comes in okay-ish doctrines which have abilities that are in much more need of a buff than the 1919. For example:

- M5, comes too late at 3 CP to have an impact.
- P-47 suppression strafe, extremely overpriced compared to the Ostheer strafe equivalent.
- Time on Target, one of the slowest arty strikes ingame, only useful to destroy OKW bases.
21 Aug 2019, 15:50 PM
#120
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:07 PMVonIvan

Problem is riflemen medium/long range without weapon upgrades. Compare 280 rifles to 280 infantry sections. The sections have the long range to kite axis inf well or blob to counter


Expert and player from the top 10 confirmed that the riflemans have a problem.

I see how the USF is not popular in tournaments. Only the British and the Soviets.

I hope you understand that you made a mistake by choosing the USF several times in the Masters Cup. I don’t know what you wanted to prove with such a risky step.
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