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What do people think of Conscripts after the patch?

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3 Aug 2019, 17:32 PM
#161
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2276

Where is vipper to shut down rants with depth in game stats and accurate facts when you most need him?
3 Aug 2019, 17:39 PM
#162
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15155 | Subs: 7

Where is vipper to shut down rants with depth in game stats and accurate facts when you most need him?

Probably crying somewhere in a corner after long argument with Sander, which he lost so bad it wasn't even funny. Apparently extremely picky selective vacuum theorycraft doesn't work well when confronted with actual reality of meta and basic micro.
3 Aug 2019, 17:40 PM
#163
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2276

I've finally been able to return to this thread. First of all, what the fuck's happened to it? A simple thread about Conscripts turned into a discussion about side techs, Panzerschrecks, and Ostwind.

That happens when people start to cherrypick and use bad arguments instead of playing fair
Second of all, the general consensus seems to be that in order to buff Conscripts we must nerf Penals and the T-70.

I personally disagree with that. I don't think Penals are overpowered/overperforming.

Penals perform well

, while Conscripts don't...

Quite an oppinion buddy. I think you will need to prove your reasons behind it, since game stats and matches show otherwise.
It doesnt require a genius to figure out that cons < penals (check their costs)

Penals come way later and costs way more than any other mainline infantry.

The price you pay for T1 (its not like obers that you wait 10 min) mainline safe domination, dont you agree?

They might win a fight one-on-one but they will always be outnumbered by the less costly axis infantry. And once they get their weapon upgrades Penals will be outmatched until they reach vet3. The way people talk about Penals makes it seems like infantry just vaporize at the mere sight of them. So to summarize, instead of nerfing something that works, let's buff something that doesn't. If people hate Penals so much, then buffing Conscripts would make their pressence less ubiquitous, no?

Wait, pEnUls are not ment to carry the whole game!? What am i going to do with all the doctrinal call ins!
#SU'cks

By the time penals are useless you should have either FU advantage or far more units than your axis counterpart, for fighting OKW you could change and adapt from midgame onwards.
3 Aug 2019, 17:53 PM
#164
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2390 | Subs: 1


can people stop playing the victim card when it's about allied units ?


We're only talking about conscripts with a "victim card". They are an infantry squad that has been left in the dust for years and even the recent buff was not enough

You are the only one making this into a larger axis v. Allies discussion. Armadillo even compared them to Rifleman in his example, and somehow you're making this about anti-axis bias
3 Aug 2019, 18:02 PM
#165
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4304



We're only talking about conscripts with a "victim card". They are an infantry squad that has been left in the dust for years and even the recent buff was not enough

You are the only one making this into a larger axis v. Allies discussion. Armadillo even compared them to Rifleman in his example, and somehow you're making this about anti-axis bias

i simply said, buff cons nerf penal, if u don't soviet are gonna be broken as they can complemnet each other
3 Aug 2019, 18:12 PM
#166
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2390 | Subs: 1


i simply said, buff cons nerf penal, if u don't soviet are gonna be broken as they can complemnet each other


If conscripts become worth anything you would see fewer penals. The biggest reason to buff cons is so t2 is actually useable. Current cons can't carry the load of t2, so everyone goes t1
3 Aug 2019, 18:15 PM
#167
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4304



If conscripts become worth anything you would see fewer penals. The biggest reason to buff cons is so t2 is actually useable. Current cons can't carry the load of t2, so everyone goes t1
if u just buff cons people are just gonna use penal AND cons to complement and give them cheaper reinforce

nerf penal buff cons, nerf t 70 buff maxim (not to maxim spam lvl obv)
3 Aug 2019, 19:20 PM
#168
avatar of Vykraznar

Posts: 14


Wait, pEnUls are not ment to carry the whole game!? What am i going to do with all the doctrinal call ins!
#SU'cks

By the time penals are useless you should have either FU advantage or far more units than your axis counterpart, for fighting OKW you could change and adapt from midgame onwards.

The initial early game infantry battles would be too taxing on manpower for you to get elite infantry by the time you gain access to them. You can usually only get one squad of elite infantry out per game. Two if you did really well early game and lost very few models. Getting elite infantry also delays getting your first LV.

I don't get where you're getting "far more units than your axis counterpart" from. By the time Penals are useless, which is by the time Axis infantry get their weapon upgrades, Ost already has one MG42, 3 Gren squads, and at least one PzGren squad on the field and OKW already has 4 Volks squad or 3 Volks squad and one JLI squad on the field if the OKW player chose a doctrine with them in it.
3 Aug 2019, 19:42 PM
#169
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2276



We're only talking about conscripts with a "victim card". They are an infantry squad that has been left in the dust for years and even the recent buff was not enough

You are the only one making this into a larger axis v. Allies discussion. Armadillo even compared them to Rifleman in his example, and somehow you're making this about anti-axis bias

But actually, conscripts are no victim at all. They are the weakest by design, not because they "have been left in the dust for years".
The lastest buff to them proves my point.

Please stop making up nonesense.
3 Aug 2019, 19:45 PM
#170
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2276


I don't get where you're getting "far more units than your axis counterpart" from. By the time Penals are useless, which is by the time Axis infantry get their weapon upgrades, Ost already has one MG42, 3 Gren squads, and at least one PzGren squad on the field and OKW already has 4 Volks squad or 3 Volks squad and one JLI squad on the field if the OKW player chose a doctrine with them in it.

And you should have 3 penals and probably a T70 or a maxim+mortar/zis in the same time frame. Mines and hopefully a live M3A1 with flamer CE...
3 Aug 2019, 20:30 PM
#171
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2390 | Subs: 1

"It was designed that way" is not a good reason for something not to change. The soviet tech structure doesn't even remotely resemble the way it came at launch, there's no reason cons can't get more buffs. No one wants them to be Rifleman, just better than current

OKWs mainline isn't even close to it's original design. Volks were even weaker than cons in AI and they were cheaper. The AT horde was their only good use

Cons design was great in the EF days, then WF factions came along
3 Aug 2019, 20:40 PM
#172
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3938 | Subs: 1

tech building cost mp too
can people stop playing the victim card when it's about allied units ? cons are not up to their task that's for sure, but adding upgrade cost ONLY to them in unfair and cherry pick way to look at it, they need a buff to mid and close range damage when they nerf the penals

Are you intentionally not reading or is that just a skill you lack? Hard tech makes up many different things. You can argue about the building, but that is split across 3 units conscript tech is applied ONLY to conscripts thus the "damage" is solely on the shoulders of the conscripts.
Furthermore, hard teching is harder to quantify, as I said in the post you replied to, but again I'll say it so maybe you will read it this time. Conscripts tech is not hard to attribute and it's a CLEAR additional cost on an already underwhelming unit. That's all the point I'm making and I don't even know why you are arguing otherwise. I don't know why you are trying to bring ostheer into this at all, as the state of cons and their exclusive and overpriced upgrades inflating their cost has not a fucking thing to do with ostheer.

Also they need a buff REGARDLESS od penals. More cons means less penals, maybe even t2. We have never once in the history of the Soviet faction seen both tiers viable. Penals were trash, now maxim is trash. Cons have always been trash but maybe better cons will give us better direction for maxims.
3 Aug 2019, 22:10 PM
#173
avatar of über alles

Posts: 69

nerf t 70 nerf penals

lmao

to sum up, you want kill the faction? nerf the few things who are ok with soviets?

Just put 7 crew cons at T3
4 Aug 2019, 07:36 AM
#174
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2276

"It was designed that way" is not a good reason for something not to change. The soviet tech structure doesn't even remotely resemble the way it came at launch, there's no reason cons can't get more buffs. No one wants them to be Rifleman, just better than current

OKWs mainline isn't even close to it's original design. Volks were even weaker than cons in AI and they were cheaper. The AT horde was their only good use

Cons design was great in the EF days, then WF factions came along

let me put this clear:
You want a troop called conscripts (dudes without full militar training and probably armed with less than normal) to be as effective as trained SOLDIERS, some even had been in the previous World war?
To put things on perspective, grens are 4 man squads and are as balanced as constripts that are 6 man. %50 more than the other. If that doesnt tell you that some soldiers were better than others...
CoH does not have to be historical accurate but what it has to respect the words meaning.

4 Aug 2019, 08:08 AM
#175
avatar of Vykraznar

Posts: 14

Oh, come on. Don't pull out the hIsToRiCaL aCcUrRaCy card. That's just fucking lame. You want historical accuracy in a game where a Kubel, what is a basically a civilian car, can survive a shot in the rear from a 45mm gun. Your post also implies that Germany - or any other nation aside from the Soviet Union didn't use conscripted soldiers to fill the huge manpower gap in its army. Conscripts are only called that by name because the game perpetuates a false "EVIL SOVIETS ONLY WON BY USING UNARMED HORDES OF UNTRAINED FARMERS" narrative.
4 Aug 2019, 08:23 AM
#176
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15155 | Subs: 7


let me put this clear:
You want a troop called conscripts (dudes without full militar training and probably armed with less than normal) to be as effective as trained SOLDIERS, some even had been in the previous World war?
To put things on perspective, grens are 4 man squads and are as balanced as constripts that are 6 man. %50 more than the other. If that doesnt tell you that some soldiers were better than others...
CoH does not have to be historical accurate but what it has to respect the words meaning.


Multiplayer officially happens in 1944-45.
By that time soviet army was incomparably more experienced then german one as soviets had battle hardened veterans, while germans literally threw at them anyone and everyone who wasn't a woman and was able to hold a gun or panzerfaust.

If you want to go by historical accuracy, axis troops should be weakest and least experienced, because all the elites and ones who made it out of previous war are DEAD.

Conscripts are called conscripts exclusively for campaign sake, for historical sake, they are as elite as grens or better strelky.
4 Aug 2019, 08:23 AM
#177
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


let me put this clear:
You want a troop called conscripts (dudes without full militar training and probably armed with less than normal) to be as effective as trained SOLDIERS, some even had been in the previous World war?
To put things on perspective, grens are 4 man squads and are as balanced as constripts that are 6 man. %50 more than the other. If that doesnt tell you that some soldiers were better than others...
CoH does not have to be historical accurate but what it has to respect the words meaning.



ok i have to bust this...
historically the soviets didnt have conscripts but reservists... their infantry had 1-2 years prior military training before being sent to the frontline...

the germans instead were the ones that mass conscripted infantry after their veteran standing army had been bled dry in barbarossa and fall blau... the volksgrenadiers you see in OKW are the real conscripts without military training... the soviet conscript on the other hand would historically be reservists... and SHOULD be qualitatively superior to german conscripted infantry...
4 Aug 2019, 08:28 AM
#178
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


Multiplayer officially happens in 1944-45.
By that time soviet army was incomparably more experienced then german one as soviets had battle hardened veterans, while germans literally threw at them anyone and everyone who wasn't a woman and was able to hold a gun or panzerfaust.

If you want to go by historical accuracy, axis troops should be weakest and least experienced, because all the elites and ones who made it out of previous war are DEAD.

Conscripts are called conscripts exclusively for campaign sake, for historical sake, they are as elite as grens or better strelky.


even the term conscript for a 1941 era soviet army would be dumb... the bulk of soviet infantry by fall blau (stalingrad) are reservists not conscripts
4 Aug 2019, 10:54 AM
#179
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4304

nerf t 70 nerf penals

lmao

to sum up, you want kill the faction? nerf the few things who are ok with soviets?

Just put 7 crew cons at T3
then add it a little cost something like 20 fu 200 mp
4 Aug 2019, 11:14 AM
#180
avatar of honeymonstis

Posts: 23


let me put this clear:
You want a troop called conscripts (dudes without full militar training and probably armed with less than normal) to be as effective as trained SOLDIERS, some even had been in the previous World war?


ok dont start to bring history into this. For your information volksgrens and normal grens where for the most part CONSCRIPTS. OKW is supposed to be 1944 west German army and that army was made up nearly entirely of conscripts with little training (couple of weeks to a couple of months depending on the function).
oh and the US riflemen you see in the game? Guess what? They are also conscripts.... Tommies? Conscripts.


CoH does not have to be historical accurate but what it has to respect the words meaning.

What does that even mean? Something special about the word Volksgrenadier or conscript?
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