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What do people think of Conscripts after the patch?

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2 Aug 2019, 12:16 PM
#61
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Aug 2019, 13:06 PMaaa
Aganst okw just amove them always. Against grens there is no solution other than sniper start.

I would just nerf mg42 to 34 or maxim level


Yeah and nerf ostheer out of the game lol. Good luck stopping tommy blobs and riflemen blobs with worse mg42 LOL.
2 Aug 2019, 12:17 PM
#62
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7

all faction units cost like this rifle etc (not IS cause IS is BALANCED :romeoHairDay: )

It is - around 5th man.

what people means for cheap is the reinforce for a single model cause they still have 80 hp not lower but are 6 so they are cheaper to reinforce

And that's still incorrect, because more numerous squads also have less received accuracy therefore less effective hp and lower firepower. More numerous squads also will lose more models before retreating, making that argument a complete and utter bullshit, unless you always retreat your 6 man squads after losing 2 men.
2 Aug 2019, 12:32 PM
#63
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2355



And that's still incorrect, because more numerous squads also have less received accuracy therefore less effective hp and lower firepower.

RA is an RNG mechanic though. EHP of infantry is an estimation.
2 Aug 2019, 12:33 PM
#64
avatar of honeymonstis

Posts: 23


I agree with the last point, but faction designs are heavily discussed constantly with no productive results. I disagree about relying on call-in infantry being bad design, it could have been badly implemented but adds risks/rewards and originality.


Fair enough but its also why I said its simply my opinion. I think calls ins should be flavour and not the focus of factions.


Volks vs cons is an endless debate with more argument casualties than ww1+ww2 combined. I would suggest you not to continue on that road. Not because i like bully volks, but because their differences are deeply rooted in the factions design, available units to support and overall endgame tactics.


Volks should very much be the axis counterpart to cons. A bad fighting unit which through global upgrades can become a utility powerhouse. The amount of inf that OKW has access to through vanilla tech and doctrines really makes me wonder why volks are this jack of all trades high cost effective combat unit.
and I dont mind people call me stuff and I have no issues with opening that can of worms. Cons are in my view not where they should be and neither are volks.


Also cons are not that bad in this meta, they are not for the newest players though, since they will not win engagements 1v1, but they can win most fights with tactics and some mindgames.


I use cons all the time and they can be useful when outplaying your opponent. However the thing is that you have to play better than the opposition for them to function and perform. In a game where you are struggling then cons become an irrelevant unit almost.


I wonder if there is a possible way to make cons cheaper to reinforce until T3... to allow some riskier plays using cons. You cant also spam cons if the game has only 5-8 mins and MGs clearly dominate that time frame too.


That seems quite silly. I get your idea and its not bad but it would be confusing as hell to have your worst inf in the game become more expensive as the game progress and wipes become more frequent.
Also I dont want cons to be a super spamable unit that can handle anything. I just want a unit that is able to perform as a mainline inf on par with other factions units without side tech and doctrines. If cons should be a "fight in cover unit" like tommies then fine. Or if cons should be this med-close range low dps unit life rifles then fine. But right now they are a support? unit that performs best in close range simply because at all other ranges they are pure rng with the abysmal acc.

Also a minor issue with cons is the fact that they feed the enemy with vet. They die very easily and have lost of models and hp. So axis like to "farm" cons (I know I do). Make the vet value of cons reflect that value as a unit.
2 Aug 2019, 12:37 PM
#65
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

oh yes, first we overbuff cons by increasing their damage

a 10% DPS buff would make them LESS useless against volksgrenadier spam that OKW is infamous for... maybe nerfing volksgrenadiers may be a better idea but then tommies and rifles would need a rework aswell


and making the upgrade come before lmg 42,

the issue is if the upgrade is tied to T3 then the LMG42 will still come significantly earlier than the 7 man scripts...
T3 + molly/AT nade + T1/2 costs significantly more than BP1 + T1... T3 alone costs more than BP1+T1



and then we buff the maxim too, why not delete the axis and only play soviet civil war ?

because having the maxim as a viable unit = the end of axis? name one unviable core WM unit... EVERY single unit in the axis arsenal has been buffed to viability... the soviet arsenal remains plagued with the god awful performance of its core infantry (T2 builds considered) and its MG

2 Aug 2019, 12:56 PM
#66
avatar of Maret

Posts: 675

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2019, 12:37 PMgbem

a 10% DPS buff would make them LESS useless against volksgrenadier spam


Stats changes for cons IMHO way to deadend. Much better change economical part and then manipulate cost of reinforce neither try to hit in golden apple with stats.
2 Aug 2019, 12:57 PM
#67
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2355


I think calls ins should be flavour and not the focus of factions.

Oh, i agree with you, but it seems that SU flavour is exactly doctrinal strategies and call-ins. It adjust to a very versatile yet balanced faction design.

Volks should very much be the axis counterpart to cons. A bad fighting unit which through global upgrades can become a utility powerhouse. The amount of inf that OKW has access to through vanilla tech and doctrines really makes me wonder why volks are this jack of all trades high cost effective combat unit.
and I dont mind people call me stuff and I have no issues with opening that can of worms. Cons are in my view not where they should be and neither are volks.

Well, i can agree only on some points. Volks are axis counterpart of cons. The difference as the game tries to emulate is that volks are veteran soldiers that were dismissed, because of age or wounds. But they have this "experience" thing, that is reflected in the whole faction with 5 star vet system. Cons on the other side are the most loyal fighters, untrained but willing, thats why they can merge other squads. Its worth noting we are comparing a original game faction with a DLC one (one that players had to pay extra for) and that brought up a lot of unfair situations.
At least, Volks shouldnt be able to build sbags, everyone agrees about that. But they are not as able to perform roles as you describe, at least IMHO. Volks are generalist soldiers that differentiate a lot from the rest of OKW units, that are highly specialized and not very compelling to other units. Thats why they are abused in the current meta, they are the glue that keeps them together. At least that is the design they have now.


I use cons all the time and they can be useful when outplaying your opponent. However the thing is that you have to play better than the opposition for them to function and perform. In a game where you are struggling then cons become an irrelevant unit almost.

True, as i said, cons are no noob troops, i like to use them aswell and its fine to say that well played tactics makes cons useful. Problem is that SU cant exploit combined arms as much as OH does, just to lay out a comparison, i dont mean SU have to.


That seems quite silly. I get your idea and its not bad but it would be confusing as hell to have your worst inf in the game become more expensive as the game progress and wipes become more frequent.

Yeah, i though that too, but if you think it this way. That is why i suggested later to bind the cost reduction to T2, to promote it and some combined arms tactics, they will not be stronger, but cheaper when the player wants to go heavy with tactics. Backteching to T2 for the cons buff will be useful too.
But right now they are a support? unit that performs best in close range simply because at all other ranges they are pure rng with the abysmal acc.

Exactly, cons are support med range troops. They are not the best in no situation in particular, unique but hard to master.


Also a minor issue with cons is the fact that they feed the enemy with vet. They die very easily and have lost of models and hp. So axis like to "farm" cons (I know I do). Make the vet value of cons reflect that value as a unit.

Vet system should be tweaked as a whole, this kind of situations considered for the sake of a good game balance. There are many threads about veterancy. Keep track of them
2 Aug 2019, 12:59 PM
#68
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2355

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2019, 12:37 PMgbem

a 10% DPS buff would make them LESS useless against volksgrenadier spam that OKW is infamous for... maybe nerfing volksgrenadiers may be a better idea but then tommies and rifles would need a rework aswell

Glad you forgot to mention that cons would also beat grens 10% more easily.

because having the maxim as a viable unit = the end of axis? name one unviable core WM unit... EVERY single unit in the axis arsenal has been buffed to viability... the soviet arsenal remains plagued with the god awful performance of its core infantry (T2 builds considered) and its MG

Wait, you name one unviable core WM unit, why do other people have to do your own homework?
2 Aug 2019, 12:59 PM
#69
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

to assign a factions viability to doctrines is simply bad design on the part of the balancing team tbh... commanders are there for expanding tactical options... not allowing a faction to be playable
2 Aug 2019, 13:01 PM
#70
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343


The LMG42 upgrade for Grens comes at battlephase 1, correct? So, around 5 minutes into the game, roughly around the same time for Soviets to get T1/T2. Maybe even earlier. Mobilize reserves costs 50 muni while the LMG costs 60. I don't see how that would make the 7th man upgrade come faster than LMG42s.
tier 2 cost 40 fuel ? this is new
2 Aug 2019, 13:11 PM
#71
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2019, 12:37 PMgbem

a 10% DPS buff would make them LESS useless against volksgrenadier spam that OKW is infamous for... maybe nerfing volksgrenadiers may be a better idea but then tommies and rifles would need a rework aswell


the issue is if the upgrade is tied to T3 then the LMG42 will still come significantly earlier than the 7 man scripts...
T3 + molly/AT nade + T1/2 costs significantly more than BP1 + T1... T3 alone costs more than BP1+T1



because having the maxim as a viable unit = the end of axis? name one unviable core WM unit... EVERY single unit in the axis arsenal has been buffed to viability... the soviet arsenal remains plagued with the god awful performance of its core infantry (T2 builds considered) and its MG

ok let's start by..... now, an overall... 10%dps increase.... would make them too strong ... at long range.... maybe .... just increase the cd at..... close range....

..... t1+b1 is 55 fu... soviet t1 is 10 t2 is 20...... and the upgrade gives more than just... dps (1 more rifle+ cd reduction in .... cover) it increases durability .... and veterancy gain, 0 second upgrade are ... just bad.... and will lead to cons spam only.....

maxim can use ... a buff... to suppression... with a nerf... to set up......but..... all the buff too cons...+ the maxim support.... will lead to a stompy early.... game for soviet deleting osther ....
..............
...........
........
...
.
btw... if Soviet is so .... weak... why does it... have such... a good ... win rates ? better than ost ....?
2 Aug 2019, 13:27 PM
#72
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


Glad you forgot to mention that cons would also beat grens 10% more easily.

to be fair OST now has the pgren spam which is quite effective aswell and does not require any side techs to make... a 10% buff is perfectly viable considering how good a gren + pgren combination is...


Wait, you name one unviable core WM unit, why do other people have to do your own homework?

imma list all core WM and SOV units and their viability (V for Viable U for Unviable)

WEHRMACHT
pios = the only engineer unit of WM (V)
grens = core to every decent ost build ever (V)
sniper = viable at high skill levels (requires a bit more micro than the average joe is capable of) (V)
MG42 = god tier MG (V)
pak 40 = 2nd best AT gun statwise with the best secondary ability(V)
GR41 = used to be a god tier mortar... still viable as a support weapon for ost (V)
222 = sniper and LV killer (V)
SDKFZ251 = the flames of redemption... may be a bit OP (V)
panzergrenadiers = used to be unviable but pgrens see much more use and definitely count as viable (V)
ostwind = used to be meh but is now extremely powerful as a wipe machine (V)
stug = cheap medium AT for axis... used to be OP but is still solid(V)
panzer 4 = a solid medium tank (V)
brummbar = still extremely efficient at infantry wiping though no longer OP (V)
panther = best medium tank ingame atm although worse vs infantry compared to the P4 (V)
panzerwerfer = guaranteed wipe on weapon teams and AT walls and extremely effective vs infantry blobs (V)

SOVIETS
engies = the only engineer unit of SOV (V)
conscripts = the subject of the matter... a featherless chicken against most enemies it encounters... by the time upgrades are unlocked the battle is most likely lost and hence its viability is compromised by timing (U)
maxim = worst MG ingame (U)
PM-42 = used to be the god of mortars (with precision shot) then became shit and then became the self spotting mortar (V)
zis 3 = worst AT gun by stats... but barrage is extremely good at wiping enemy squads and weapon teams that i sometimes forego the PM-42 depending on the situation(V)
M3 = clooowncaaar (V)
penals = still the soviet meta (V)
sniper = just like the wehrmacht sniper but its soviet (V)
T-70 = god of LVs (V)
SU-76 = used to be god tier... then became shit tier... then got buffed to viability (V)
m5 Halftrack = used to be shit... now pretty good as blob control (V)
SU-85 = 2nd best tank destroyer (V)
T-34/76 = some people dont like it... but i like it due to its low price and the fact that it does alot of AI damage for 90 fuel (V)
katy = a soviet panzerwerfer (V)



soo as we can see there remains 2 unviable soviet units... the maxim and the conscript while the entire WM lineup has already been buffed to viability
2 Aug 2019, 13:29 PM
#73
avatar of honeymonstis

Posts: 23


btw... if Soviet is so .... weak... why does it... have such... a good ... win rates ? better than ost ....?

Sov arent weak in 1vs1 or even team games. Cons are up and have no real clear role however. Sov just use tactics and other units that are not dependent on their mainline inf. Sov have access to some quite op units but that does not make the cons magically a good unit.
Ost is my favorite faction as thematically and stylistic I like the them the most (also reminds me old COH 1 goodness). However Ost is quite punishing with easy ways to lose units and be wiped by explosives. So Ost are a higher tier of skill than some of the other factions in the game but also very punishable by RNG.
Cons vs Grens balance is pretty good. Grens ofc scale better with upgrade and their rifle nades are in my opinion better than the molos. Early and even mid game the cons / grens dynamic is great. But that is where the whole issue comes from. If you buff cons or give them good scalable weapon upgrades they might break the cons / grens balance. But if you do nothing then OKW blob braindead play remains as a completely viable tactic. But if you nerf volks AI then rifles and tommies become an issue again (tommies with early bolster is already an issue).
Fixing cons to be a viable unit against OKW while NOT becoming op against Ost is what the whole thing is about for me.
That is why I think their utility and not outright combat performance should be looked at. Make the molo and AT nade just a part of sov tech naturally. Then with the 7th man in t4 or t3 then cons will have some late game use as well. Right now they are just a too heavily investment to use in anything other than cons focused doctrines or if you got some specific tactic in mind.
Just to show the issues:
OKW: always gets volks.
USF: always gets rifles.
UKF: always gets tommies.
OST: always gets grens.
SOV: maybe gets cons. Most of the time just 1.
I think penals are also to blame for this and I dislike that unit a lot as well. Its a silly unit and with gamey design that function as a clutch for sov inf. But that is just my opinion and not facts.
2 Aug 2019, 13:40 PM
#74
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

ok let's start by..... now, an overall... 10%dps increase.... would make them too strong ... at long range.... maybe .... just increase the cd at..... close range....

well the 10% change is to be a counterbalance to volks and the new pgrens.. both of which are available through normal teching without sidegrades


..... t1+b1 is 55 fu... soviet t1 is 10 t2 is 20...... and the upgrade gives more than just... dps (1 more rifle+ cd reduction in .... cover) it increases durability .... and veterancy gain, 0 second upgrade are ... just bad.... and will lead to cons spam only.....

T1 + BP1 = 55 fuel
T1/2 + T3 = 95/105 fuel
thats not even counting the molly + ATnade which are a necessity to using conscripts... ok i do agree that 10/20 fuel is ridiculously cheap... how about tying the 7 man upgrade to upgradetech worth 80 mp 30 fuel on the T1/2 building reducing the T3 cost to 160mp 55 fuel but require the upgradetech to be researched?


maxim can use ... a buff... to suppression... with a nerf... to set up......but..... all the buff too cons...+ the maxim support.... will lead to a stompy early.... game for soviet deleting osther

yeah well going conscript without the PPSH results into a guaranteed stomp by the axis forces early to midgame... if it werent for commanders T2 play would be EXTINCT


btw... if Soviet is so .... weak... why does it... have such... a good ... win rates ? better than ost ....?


penals guards and shocks... which may need to be reworked aswell
2 Aug 2019, 13:50 PM
#75
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343

and u can counter balance.... volks at close range not long range, pg didn't.... get any stats buff they just come a bit earlier

i thought u wanted them ....at tier 1/2 unlock, not tier 3, .....but any way they already.... explained it's not ....at tier 3 cause it would be too.... strong of shock value with the t 70
and reducing tier 3 cost would lead to an even.... earlier t-70 so no again, u are just.... trying to buff everything.... to make soviet op.....

i don't see u or anyone talking ...about nerfing guards or penal, what u ....expect people to just believe when they buff cons to nerf the.... other when u never talk about them ? .....
2 Aug 2019, 14:02 PM
#76
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

and u can counter balance.... volks at close range not long range, pg didn't.... get any stats buff they just come a bit earlier


and now you see them spammed EVERYWHERE while conscripts are still a wet noodle whenever pgrens arrive... plus as an OST player its now perfectly reasonable to skip T2 and the pak 40 to rush a panzer 4 which is quite the developing meta atm...


i thought u wanted them ....at tier 1/2 unlock, not tier 3, .....but any way they already.... explained it's not ....at tier 3 cause it would be too.... strong of shock value with the t 70


ooooh i wanna try! let me try!
grenadier LMGs at BP1 would have too strong of a shock value with the panzer 4 and would be equivalent to deleting the soviets... hence grenadier LMGs should only come out at BP3...


and reducing tier 3 cost would lead to an even.... earlier t-70 so no again, u are just.... trying to buff everything.... to make soviet op.....


are you dumb? i specifically stated "but require the upgradetech to be researched"



i don't see u or anyone talking ...about nerfing guards or penal, what u ....expect people to just believe when they buff cons to nerf the.... other when u never talk about them ? .....


because its offtopic? just because i didnt mention it here doesnt mean that i find penals to be a non problem
2 Aug 2019, 14:22 PM
#77
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 634



Just to show the issues:
OKW: always gets volks.
USF: always gets rifles.
UKF: always gets tommies.
OST: always gets grens.
SOV: maybe gets cons. Most of the time just 1.
I think penals are also to blame for this and I dislike that unit a lot as well. Its a silly unit and with gamey design that function as a clutch for sov inf. But that is just my opinion and not facts.


Current penals are a result of powercreep in the wfa armies.

Being forced into guard/shock doctrines just to be able to compete is bad.
2 Aug 2019, 14:26 PM
#78
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7



Current penals are a result of powercreep in the wfa armies.

Being forced into guard/shock doctrines just to be able to compete is bad.

Actually, current penals are result of soviets not having anything reliable at long range and cons being completely impotent without any kind of offensive upgrade.

Late game upgrade doesn't do anything for early game, therefore its still not viable to use them in early as mainline, so you get them exclusively if you go for ppsh or svt.
2 Aug 2019, 14:32 PM
#79
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4343

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2019, 14:02 PMgbem


and now you see them spammed EVERYWHERE while conscripts are still a wet noodle whenever pgrens arrive... plus as an OST player its now perfectly reasonable to skip T2 and the pak 40 to rush a panzer 4 which is quite the developing meta atm...



ooooh i wanna try! let me try!
grenadier LMGs at BP1 would have too strong of a shock value with the panzer 4 and would be equivalent to deleting the soviets... hence grenadier LMGs should only come out at BP3...



are you dumb? i specifically stated "but require the upgradetech to be researched"




because its offtopic? just because i didnt mention it here doesnt mean that i find penals to be a non problem
spammed ? they still cost the same, and if u want to skip tier 2 ur choice u lose 251 222 and pak 40, so u are that much weaker vs vehicle and snipers

it was not my excuse, so don't push it against me, but i do agree that the shock value would be too much with the current t-70

my didn't see it

off topic or not people will only see what u write not ur intention, if they do enrf the guards penal and t 70 then yes buff would come as expected



2 Aug 2019, 14:40 PM
#80
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

spammed ? they still cost the same, and if u want to skip tier 2 ur choice u lose 251 222 and pak 40, so u are that much weaker vs vehicle and snipers


double schrecks are extremely powerful... likewise if ever the enemy does make a sniper it is quite easy to change your strategy and opt for a 222 + flame truck + pak 40 strategy since the sniper is most likely going to come out very early anyways


it was not my excuse, so don't push it against me, but i do agree that the shock value would be too much with the current t-70

then what about the STG volks and the luchs? or from LMG grens and the flametruck? how come i never heard a "too much shock value" complaint from axis mains?


my didn't see it

fair enough


off topic or not people will only see what u write not ur intention, if they do enrf the guards penal and t 70 then yes buff would come as expected

ive made my opinion clear ages ago on the penals and guards... the T-70 being strong is however acceptable seeing as how OST also gets several god tier units of its own (MG-42 flametruck new ostwind)
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