Login

russian armor

British balance - Tommy too strong

PAGES (11)down
31 Jul 2019, 21:10 PM
#121
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Preliminary changes:
- Lee Enfield damage from 16 to 14 to reduce burst potential (5x16=80 damage = one model's health) and to slightly reduce their DPS versus heavy cover;
- Lee Enfield accuracy increased to have the same total DPS as before


This seems like a very good idea, like the others too

What about making bolster a squad by squad upgrade? So the more 5 man tommies you want, the more you pay. Could still have an initial unlock cost too

31 Jul 2019, 21:13 PM
#122
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I believe it's +40% reload and +20% cooldown when out of cover, so that doesn't affect Lee Enfield DPS all that much. It mostly affects Piats and Brens.


Has the balance team considered changing that? The early game is when Section cover should matter the most.
31 Jul 2019, 21:16 PM
#123
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2019, 21:13 PMLago
Has the balance team considered changing that? The early game is when Section cover should matter the most.

We considered it iirc, but ultimately we went for the Lee Enfield damage change and putting some of their Target Size into a Received Accuracy cover bonus. At least for now.


What about making bolster a squad by squad upgrade? So the more 5 man tommies you want, the more you pay. Could still have an initial unlock cost too

It is pretty tempting to go after lots of things, because quite frankly a lot of things about the UKF feel a bit off, but I think it's best to keep changes to a minimal to avoid overnerfing things. An IS performance change and significantly nerfing Bolster would probably be too severe.

Personally I think screwing with Bolster is a bit dangerous, although I wouldn't mind at least making new 5 men IS/RE cost more. But I think first we will have to see how the IS changes feel.
31 Jul 2019, 21:30 PM
#124
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



I believe it's +40% reload and +20% cooldown when out of cover, so that doesn't affect Lee Enfield DPS all that much. It mostly affects Piats and Brens.


For brens, does this mean that until they have to reload, their DPS is mainly unaffected?

I have an admittedly biased and untested theory that with brens they are able to put out enough damage before they have to reload and are significantly affected by the out of cover penalties.
31 Jul 2019, 21:33 PM
#125
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Personally I think screwing with Bolster is a bit dangerous, although I wouldn't mind at least making new 5 men IS/RE cost more. But I think first we will have to see how the IS changes feel.


Fair enough that makes sense, i like that cost idea too
31 Jul 2019, 21:34 PM
#126
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

For brens, does this mean that until they have to reload, their DPS is mainly unaffected?


No, because Brens fire in bursts with pretty long cooldowns.
Cooldown time near 1.13 - 1.5
Cooldown time mid 1.31 - 1.75
Cooldown time far 1.5 - 2

So all those are +20% longer when out of cover. And then after 7 bursts there is the reload, which is 6.5 seconds (and becomes x1.4 = 8.96 seconds).
31 Jul 2019, 21:40 PM
#127
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 728

double bren 5 man IS will never be too strong until they nerf PF's. If they do nerf IS then vickers now has mg42 pen capabilities or should I rely on my AEC or bofors that cant move to stop okw super blob, because 5 man IS with double brens is one of the few things allies have that trade with them.
31 Jul 2019, 21:58 PM
#128
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2019, 21:40 PMRocket
double bren 5 man IS will never be too strong until they nerf PF's.


Wut

How are Pfusi's a problem? they have very comparable performance to 5 men Grenadiers, but lower your early game strength and cost a small fortune to upgrade. JLI and Obers are far stronger.
1 Aug 2019, 04:54 AM
#129
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1



Wut

How are Pfusi's a problem? they have very comparable performance to 5 men Grenadiers, but lower your early game strength and cost a small fortune to upgrade. JLI and Obers are far stronger.


And IS not cost a fortune to upgrade ?
1 Aug 2019, 05:05 AM
#130
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1



How much Fuel does OKW start with?

How much Fuel does UKF start with?


As i said, UKF pay for side tech, which delay their tech to armor, OKW is not. volk get stg on the field, tommy have to go back to HQ to get 5 man and bren, etc so for and so on.
1 Aug 2019, 05:19 AM
#131
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

I suddenly come with an ideal, we delete bolster upgrade, make infantry section gren clone from the stat, with 1 bren upgrade but can receive on the front line like gren Mg42 and have HEAT nade (stick to mills bombs tech). Then, we add another unit into company command post, call "bolster infantry section", yes, exactly the same 5 man with 2 bren tommy as we have had but now in latest tech, make them basically ober equivalent. Now UK have 2 type of mainline infantry and they can be balanced separately in price and performance in conjunction with other faction. No neu models required, Happy?
1 Aug 2019, 07:13 AM
#132
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

As i said, UKF pay for side tech, which delay their tech to armor, OKW is not


OKW Panzer IV = 15 + 25 + 15 + 120 + 140 - 5 = 310 fuel

UKF Cromwell = 30 + 115 + 110 - 20 = 235 fuel


Seems to me that the UKF have plenty of time and resources to get a side tech or two without getting behind on their armor timing.
1 Aug 2019, 07:16 AM
#133
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 856 | Subs: 2

I suddenly come with an ideal, we delete bolster upgrade, make infantry section gren clone from the stat, with 1 bren upgrade but can receive on the front line like gren Mg42 and have HEAT nade (stick to mills bombs tech). Then, we add another unit into company command post, call "bolster infantry section", yes, exactly the same 5 man with 2 bren tommy as we have had but now in latest tech, make them basically ober equivalent. Now UK have 2 type of mainline infantry and they can be balanced separately in price and performance in conjunction with other faction. No neu models required, Happy?


Just want to mention that "Reconnaissance Sections" are already in the game files who can get a "scoped Lee Enfield". Adding them could also give UKF 2 types of main line infantry.
1 Aug 2019, 07:54 AM
#134
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1



OKW Panzer IV = 15 + 25 + 15 + 120 + 140 - 5 = 310 fuel

UKF Cromwell = 30 + 115 + 110 - 20 = 235 fuel

That is a straight rush, mean no bolster, no bren, no nade, no AEC/Bofor. We are talking about 5 man tommy with 2 bren, mean plus 50 fuel at least, another 10 for nade, another 15 for Bofor/AEC.

This is a tactical choice, earlier armour or stronger infantry. P4 is better than cromwell in anyway so it come later, basic principal.
1 Aug 2019, 07:59 AM
#135
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

So, UKF pay 295 fuel to get a cromwell while having 5 man tommy with bren and nade. OKW pay 15 more fuel and get a better tank, balanced?
1 Aug 2019, 08:05 AM
#136
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1



Just want to mention that "Reconnaissance Sections" are already in the game files who can get a "scoped Lee Enfield". Adding them could also give UKF 2 types of main line infantry.


Reece section are more suitable as an early game unit and better fit for a new Commander (i had an idea for "Reece regimen" but it is for another thread), similar to pathfinder. We a looking for a late game heavy infantry unit which can match ober.
1 Aug 2019, 08:11 AM
#137
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

The idea is imo very much sensible and seems to deal with the problem. I play all factions and for me UK is the easiest to play with and win, and I don't even use any specific commanders or meta. Most of their stuff is just great.
1 Aug 2019, 08:18 AM
#138
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

So, UKF pay 295 fuel to get a cromwell while having 5 man tommy with bren and nade. OKW pay 15 more fuel and get a better tank, balanced?

Thing is, delaying your tech to guaranteed win any infantry combat up to elite infantry generally translates into more field control which translates into quicker armour. If 5 men Tommies were not worth their weight in fuel it won't be Meta.
I mean, a one time cost to improve ALL of your stock infantry by 25% is HUGE.
Especially when you consider that stock Tommies are already as durable as panzer grens (which is more durable than Sturmpios, without the need to close btw) and hit like a truck to begin with.

Its kinds the 1 time thing that makes it so strong (keep in mind Soviet can 1 man up and it costs a weapon slot and requires the squads only weapon slot, or Ost can get an extra model at the cost of the lmg42... UKFs price is... Delay armour... On paper?)
An upgrade that isn't a matter of if but when isn't a well designed upgrade. If the only thought you need to out into it is "do I want a massive power spike now or later" perhaps the upgrade is too strong.
Not to sound old here but *waver old person voice* I remember when getting an upgrade meant you forfeit something, an lmg meant you lose mobility and close range firepower, getting an smg meant losing long range power in favor of mobility... And even now EFA follow that line of thinking with THEIR +1man designs. I guess it's a progression of design... EFA design being "care even slightly about the gameplay" while WFA design is "stack so much firepower that you can blob your way to victory" 5 man squads everywhere... Fire on the move automatics handed to everyone.... Blob healing effeciency +500%... Forward retreats so getting your blob out of danger doesn't hurt as much....

Pay to win. First in money when the faction drops, then in resources to elevate your floor beyond the enemies ceiling. Throw resources, out bleed, retreat, repeat. I mean.... Tommies, despite being more durable and more expensive are cheaper per man than grens. Why? Because fuck you that's why.
1 Aug 2019, 08:54 AM
#139
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

That is a straight rush, mean no bolster, no bren, no nade, no AEC/Bofor. We are talking about 5 man tommy with 2 bren, mean plus 50 fuel at least, another 10 for nade, another 15 for Bofor/AEC.


You don't need an AEC if OKW skips their light vehicles to rush a tank. If they do get light vehicles, the AEC + its tech is cheaper (20 fuel more for OKW Mechanized vs 15 fuel for AEC unlock and the AEC is 60 fuel compared to 70 for the Puma).

Even if you go for every side tech (except AEC), that is 35 + 15 + 10 + 30 + 115 + 110 - 20 = 295 fuel for a Cromwell, which is less than OKW need for their medium tank (310). So once again, the UKF still has faster tank tech timing in any scenario.

Brits don't need Brens on Tommies to fight STG44 Volksgrenadiers either, they don't need grenades. See video below. They do fine just with Bolster. Besides Bolster, Brit side tech is all optional at the moment.


1 Aug 2019, 09:14 AM
#140
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1


Thing is, delaying your tech to guaranteed win any infantry combat up to elite infantry generally translates into more field control which translates into quicker armour. If 5 men Tommies were not worth their weight in fuel it won't be Meta.

OkW early game stat with stum + number advantage of volk already translate to more map contror, following by lock down and area denial capabilities of ost.

Uk Pay more to get stronger infantry, ìn oder to push back axis early aggressive and take risk vs light vehicle play.

I mean, a one time cost to improve ALL of your stock infantry by 25% is HUGE.
Especially when you consider that stock Tommies are already as durable as panzer grens (which is more durable than Sturmpios, without the need to close btw) and hit like a truck to begin with.

Its kinds the 1 time thing that makes it so strong (keep in mind Soviet can 1 man up and it costs a weapon slot and requires the squads only weapon slot, or Ost can get an extra model at the cost of the lmg42... UKFs price is... Delay armour... On paper?)

So what OKW trades to get double Stg and flames nade ?

An upgrade that isn't a matter of if but when isn't a well designed upgrade. If the only thought you need to out into it is "do I want a massive power spike now or later" perhaps the upgrade is too strong.
Not to sound old here but *waver old person voice* I remember when getting an upgrade meant you forfeit something, an lmg meant you lose mobility and close range firepower, getting an smg meant losing long range power in favor of mobility... And even now EFA follow that line of thinking with THEIR +1man designs. I guess it's a progression of design... EFA design being "care even slightly about the gameplay" while WFA design is "stack so much firepower that you can blob your way to victory" 5 man squads everywhere... Fire on the move automatics handed to everyone.... Blob healing effeciency +500%... Forward retreats so getting your blob out of danger doesn't hurt as much....


"Blob to victory","fire on the move automatic for everyone" seem fit OKW more than UKF, a lot, no? Bren fire on the move ? No? Bren come out of nowhere for tommy on the front line ? No ?

Pay to win. First in money when the faction drops, then in resources to elevate your floor beyond the enemies ceiling. Throw resources, out bleed, retreat, repeat. I mean.... Tommies, despite being more durable and more expensive are cheaper per man than grens. Why? Because fuck you that's why.


This again right vs OKW, and watch your mouth.
PAGES (11)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

337 users are online: 337 guests
17 posts in the last 24h
43 posts in the last week
97 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44644
Welcome our newest member, felayo364
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM