Login

russian armor

Tank Point Blank

Do you like the idea of Point Blank for vehicles?
Option Distribution Votes
65%
35%
Total votes: 40
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
25 Jul 2019, 23:51 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2673

This idea got some traction in another thread, so I've made it a thread of its own.

Tank Point Blank
  • Vehicles get a hefty penetration boost at extremely close range.

This is like the infantry Point Blank mechanic, but for tanks: their penetration spikes if they drive into effectively melee range.

It solves a lot of issues with the armour system without rocking the boat too much.

It's also very easy to implement with the existing range mechanics.

Stat change example:
26 Jul 2019, 01:23 AM
#2
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 809

Currently tanks have higher penetration based on how close they are, You need to quantify what the difference in this proposal is from the current system for anybody to reasonably asses it.
26 Jul 2019, 01:24 AM
#3
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 423

No. This would too heavily favor high HP, high mobility vehicles, and make tank combat even more silly than it already is in this game.
26 Jul 2019, 01:39 AM
#4
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3138 | Subs: 1

I think it's a good idea to try at least.
26 Jul 2019, 02:05 AM
#5
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1471

You need to quantify what the difference in this proposal is from the current system for anybody to reasonably asses it.


I think he's suggesting to basically have guaranteed pen at a very close range. I think the most important number is just what range that would be
26 Jul 2019, 02:14 AM
#6
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3138 | Subs: 1



I think he's suggesting to basically have guaranteed pen at a very close range. I think the most important number is just what range that would be


Would depend on the tank tho. If say the PB pen for mediums was like~ 180 across the board that would mean very reliable pen, but things like p4s with skirts would still be able to bounce shots on occasion keeping them relevant. That would also be guaranteed pen against the rear of nearly all vehicles if memory serves me right which is really ideal.

It would also make supporting your armour very much more important than it already is which I think we can agree would be a good change.
26 Jul 2019, 03:03 AM
#7
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1471



Would depend on the tank tho. If say the PB pen for mediums was like~ 180 across the board that would mean very reliable pen, but things like p4s with skirts would still be able to bounce shots on occasion keeping them relevant


But should they be bouncing any shots at point blank range? I think that's the question this thread is asking. They can still be relevant outside of point blank range

Which would be what btw? Like within 5 or 10 range? Whatever the boost amount/range threshold is, it's an interesting idea
26 Jul 2019, 04:40 AM
#8
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637

I say yes indeed.

There will be a whole new meaning of a tank getting fucked now.
26 Jul 2019, 05:30 AM
#9
avatar of gunther09
Donator 22

Posts: 349

it will attacking a large tank with a few small or medium tanks much more rewarding.
Good for spectators, and it might be a bit frustrating for players, as you are driven to more "all in" situations.
26 Jul 2019, 05:31 AM
#10
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2673

Currently tanks have higher penetration based on how close they are, You need to quantify what the difference in this proposal is from the current system for anybody to reasonably asses it.


I'd say somewhere between +75% and +100%. 200ish for a medium tank, 100ish for a light tank.

For example, the Cromwell currently has:

  • Near Accuracy: 0.050
  • Mid Accuracy: 0.0375
  • Far Accuracy: 0.025
  • Near Range: 0
  • Mid Range: 20
  • Far Range: 40
  • Near Penetration: 135
  • Mid Penetration: 120
  • Far Penetration: 105


Under this proposal, it'd change to this:
  • Near Accuracy: 0.050
  • Mid Accuracy: 0.0438
  • Far Accuracy: 0.025
  • Near Range: 0
  • Mid Range: 10
  • Far Range: 40
  • Near Penetration: 210
  • Mid Penetration: 128
  • Far Penetration: 105


Performance beyond Range 10 is unchanged, but penetration rapidly ramps up within Range 10.



No. This would too heavily favor high HP, high mobility vehicles, and make tank combat even more silly than it already is in this game.


Such as? The only high HP and high mobility vehicle that springs to mind is the Panther, which is also a high armour and high penetration vehicle which doesn't benefit from these changes.


I think he's suggesting to basically have guaranteed pen at a very close range. I think the most important number is just what range that would be


Below 10 metres, same as infantry point-blank.


it will attacking a large tank with a few small or medium tanks much more rewarding.
Good for spectators, and it might be a bit frustrating for players, as you are driven to more "all in" situations.


Only an unsupported large tank. One snare is all it takes for a point blank attack to go horribly wrong.

The difference is lower penetration vehicles now have the option of a dangerous point blank charge instead of just being outright countered. I think it's a lot like the way HMGs counter infantry, but infantry can fight back with flanking.
26 Jul 2019, 05:54 AM
#11
avatar of petal

Posts: 11

it is a cool idea, and may actually optimize the game mechanic.dividing the range from three into four has its effect.i think the close range should short enough that it only happens when two vehicle block together.
which means that only when tank dive in without support will be block the way out from behind.
moreover, a heavy tank will not be block by medium from the front which prevent the easy front charge.
if a heavy tank is well support by AT gun and infentry, the medium will not reach the back of heavy tank and will not trigger the super short range.
26 Jul 2019, 05:55 AM
#12
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1443

Trying to fix a problem that doesn`t exist.
26 Jul 2019, 06:36 AM
#13
avatar of Maret

Posts: 536

While these mechanic looks interesting and fresh, i think there are some troubles with balance.
In game almost all mediums have equal health pool (640 hp). But there are few tanks that don't follow to this rule:

1. T 34-85
2. Sherman with dozer blade

Such changes in mechanic will do these units very, very more cost effective than in current. Also soviet t-3476 in other side of these list. If now you need flanking or trying to go from back to enemy armor to deal damage, in new mechanic you could dive staright forward, without any maneuveres to left or right and get your non-deflected hit.
Such changes don't will lead us to only frontal armor engagements like medieval knights in tournir? Because for mediums this tactic becomes very, very potent. Their armor too low to deflect shot from heavy and instead of flanking they will be dive like kamikadze to deal damage.
In fact such changes will be worst for Axis from my point of view. All their tanks have more armor than allied, also their tanks cost more. I think it could lead us to very unstable situation.
26 Jul 2019, 10:56 AM
#14
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 335

Trying to fix a problem that doesn`t exist.


Yes, it doesn't exists in 1vs1 and maybe 2vs2 because there is almost always room for a flank. It would adress problems mainly in 3v3 and 4vs4 where mediums quickly get obsolete because they just can't flank in this crowded maps with narrow approaching corridors when the heavies and TDs hit the field already.

It would be an approach to make meds more interesting in the big game modes without making it a no-brainer to use them always. An alternative to axis Panther and allied TD spam.
26 Jul 2019, 11:20 AM
#15
avatar of Ara Ara Fufufu

Posts: 9

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2019, 06:36 AMMaret
While these mechanic looks interesting and fresh, i think there are some troubles with balance.
In game almost all mediums have equal health pool (640 hp). But there are few tanks that don't follow to this rule:

1. T 34-85
2. Sherman with dozer blade

Such changes in mechanic will do these units very, very more cost effective than in current. Also soviet t-3476 in other side of these list. If now you need flanking or trying to go from back to enemy armor to deal damage, in new mechanic you could dive staright forward, without any maneuveres to left or right and get your non-deflected hit.
Such changes don't will lead us to only frontal armor engagements like medieval knights in tournir? Because for mediums this tactic becomes very, very potent. Their armor too low to deflect shot from heavy and instead of flanking they will be dive like kamikadze to deal damage.
In fact such changes will be worst for Axis from my point of view. All their tanks have more armor than allied, also their tanks cost more. I think it could lead us to very unstable situation.



Dear lord if t-34 might become viable outside of fodder finally
26 Jul 2019, 11:43 AM
#16
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066




Dear lord if t-34 might become viable outside of fodder finally


Remember that this goes both ways. Everything facing the T34 will also have this increase, meaning the t34 will suffer again lol.
26 Jul 2019, 12:12 PM
#17
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 778 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2019, 06:36 AMMaret
While these mechanic looks interesting and fresh, i think there are some troubles with balance.
In game almost all mediums have equal health pool (640 hp). But there are few tanks that don't follow to this rule:

1. T 34-85
2. Sherman with dozer blade

Such changes in mechanic will do these units very, very more cost effective than in current. Also soviet t-3476 in other side of these list. If now you need flanking or trying to go from back to enemy armor to deal damage, in new mechanic you could dive staright forward, without any maneuveres to left or right and get your non-deflected hit.
Such changes don't will lead us to only frontal armor engagements like medieval knights in tournir? Because for mediums this tactic becomes very, very potent. Their armor too low to deflect shot from heavy and instead of flanking they will be dive like kamikadze to deal damage.
In fact such changes will be worst for Axis from my point of view. All their tanks have more armor than allied, also their tanks cost more. I think it could lead us to very unstable situation.


You mean :
Sherman E8 (720)
Sherman w Dozer Blade
Sherman 105?
Comet
T34/85
Panther

Once upon a time, there were a LOT of criticals on tanks.
This was unfavorable for high armor axis tanks - So they were removed for the most part.
Deflection damage was also removed for same reason.

26 Jul 2019, 12:29 PM
#18
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1572 | Subs: 2



You mean :
Sherman E8 (720)
Sherman w Dozer Blade
Sherman 105?
Comet
T34/85
Panther

Once upon a time, there were a LOT of criticals on tanks.
This was unfavorable for high armor axis tanks - So they were removed for the most part.
Deflection damage was also removed for same reason.


I always thought they got removed because it was too much randomeness and frustating for both sides.
Thanks for letting me know thar devs are axis biased and change balance according to it!
26 Jul 2019, 12:38 PM
#19
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2673

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2019, 06:36 AMMaret
While these mechanic looks interesting and fresh, i think there are some troubles with balance.
In game almost all mediums have equal health pool (640 hp). But there are few tanks that don't follow to this rule:

1. T 34-85
2. Sherman with dozer blade


Tank HP rises pretty evenly with resource cost. A T-34/85 can take an extra hit, but it also costs 130 FU versus the T-34/76's 90. The Panther can take six hits, and heavies can take seven to nine.

If anything, that's a necessary balancing factor for this idea rather than a problem.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2019, 06:36 AMMaret
Such changes in mechanic will do these units very, very more cost effective than in current. Also soviet t-3476 in other side of these list. If now you need flanking or trying to go from back to enemy armor to deal damage, in new mechanic you could dive staright forward, without any maneuveres to left or right and get your non-deflected hit.


But you've got to get to point blank range and stay there.

That can be countered with any AT gun support. That can be countered with one snare. That can be countered with the Reverse key.

Keeping your mediums at point blank range isn't a trivial matter.


Remember that this goes both ways. Everything facing the T34 will also have this increase, meaning the t34 will suffer again lol.


Closing in already increases penetration for both sides and advantages the lower armoured/lower penetration tank. Amplifying that effect won't hurt the T-34.
26 Jul 2019, 14:16 PM
#20
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 143

I think its just too late in the games life cycle for a major mechanical change like this. The core of CoH2 is arguably tank combat and this would be a pretty big change. I'd like to see more range values or something like this in a new CoH though.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
Thank you everyone for making WCS possible!
Event in Progress

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • The British Forces flag [c.B] Guard2707
  • Soviets flag [c.B] Brosras
  • Oberkommando West flag 女性主意
  • Ostheer flag 101 Airborne Divison
uploaded by koreanmaphack

Board Info

188 users are online: 7 members and 181 guests
Nashka, koreanmaphack, AmiPolizeiFunk, Smaug, Dexn, blvckdream, Alphrum
176 posts in the last 24h
1593 posts in the last week
7054 posts in the last month
Registered members: 65561
Welcome our newest member, Kothaq20
Most online: 918 users on 27 Oct 2019, 01:03 AM