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russian armor

tier 0 and tier 1 OKW rework

12 Jul 2019, 18:59 PM
#41
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3576

Slight problem here :
- Replace T0 Puppchen with Pak38/50mm (that kills heavies) : AT improvedx2
- Give Sturmpioneer 2x PanzerShrek instead of 1x : AT improvedx2
- Give Sturmpioneer Teller mine. : AT improvedx2
- Make Sturmpioneer 5x men (+1)
- Make PzFusilier : 6x men (+1) Give Teller mine/4x AT Guns: AT improvedx2
* KEEP * VolksGrenadier PzFaust : AT Same
- Make Teching cheaper...

So your proposal to lower OKW power is to DOUBLE THE AT POWER? :) Really?

Also stats-wise, the American M1 57mm is equivalent to the PAK40/75. So
+300% pen bonus is enough to pen a IS-2 100% of the time, and take out
Jackson with a T0 no fuel unit.

...
well while giving 4 at guns on Pfusilier might be interesting i think they would be a bit op

on a serious note, for sturm choosing an upgrade remove the other so no stg for p sheck sturm (so they are a much weaker p green)
same for the 5th man, they get mp 40 so they be pretty weak (pioneer mp40), p fusilier with at rifle obv would lose their acces to shreck so overall it's a nerf to AT

btw im not making tech cheaper as ot's shaved from the starting MP so it's even a bigger hit eraly, only if u go for 3 truck the net gain is 50 mp but all the lost gains from more mp early (no more 4 volks)

btw why would pen kill jackson ? The intention is to give lower over all pen (the m 57 has lower pen than pak 40, i don't know where u got ur info from but is obs wrong) but a granted pen on the first shoot (unlike say the usf one that gets better pen for a long period by paying munition)

btw STG are removed from stock so now they have to chose between close quarter (mp40s) or long range (no upgrade) but they will get beaten at long range vs bar rifle in both cases
13 Jul 2019, 00:55 AM
#42
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 300

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 20:15 PMddd


cant deal with blob = l2p issue, tell that to nicki

EDIT: unless its allied blobs because axis has no counters


The bias is strong in this one
13 Jul 2019, 01:14 AM
#43
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2741 | Subs: 1

Yo dawg I heard you like OKW reworks so I reworked OKW so your OKW rework reworks when you rework OKW reworks.
13 Jul 2019, 02:12 AM
#44
avatar of blancat

Posts: 494

mp40 volks cant deal with allies infantry

Mp44 volk is strong but not OP
13 Jul 2019, 10:26 AM
#45
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3576

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jul 2019, 02:12 AMblancat
mp40 volks cant deal with allies infantry

Mp44 volk is strong but not OP

mp 40s can perfectly deal with infantry after the rework, stg are just an overall weapon buff at all ranges and make them counter cons at all ranges, with the mp 40s now they have to chose and it's better in certain situations, like vs cons u can chose to win either at long or close , but vs brits u don't really have an answer, same vs rifle, with the mp40s u get the close range advantage now
13 Jul 2019, 15:51 PM
#46
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 913 | Subs: 1


mp 40s can perfectly deal with infantry after the rework

I mean, not really. Try using firestorm and upgrading your volks with mp40s, theyre pretty lackluster.
13 Jul 2019, 16:11 PM
#47
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 783 | Subs: 1

The vet accuracy bonus of Volks is lower than those of Assault Grenadiers, their RA with vet is far worse, they don't have sprint, they can't upgrade to 6 men and the MP40 upgrade costs munitions.

Why would I want handicapped Assault Grenadiers again?
13 Jul 2019, 16:34 PM
#48
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13241 | Subs: 6

The vet accuracy bonus of Volks is lower than those of Assault Grenadiers, their RA with vet is far worse, they don't have sprint, they can't upgrade to 6 men and the MP40 upgrade costs munitions.

Why would I want handicapped Assault Grenadiers again?

Because you're stubborn about CQC inf as OKW, but in denial about Spios performance and scaling?
13 Jul 2019, 17:21 PM
#49
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3576


I mean, not really. Try using firestorm and upgrading your volks with mp40s, theyre pretty lackluster.
ass green and volks with mp 40 should have the same weapon, and i do see assgreen played , especially with the new dock
13 Jul 2019, 17:34 PM
#50
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1775 | Subs: 2

ass green and volks with mp 40 should have the same weapon, and i do see assgreen played , especially with the new dock



The vet accuracy bonus of Volks is lower than those of Assault Grenadiers, their RA with vet is far worse, they don't have sprint, they can't upgrade to 6 men and the MP40 upgrade costs munitions.


13 Jul 2019, 18:03 PM
#51
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3576






that is false they use the same weapon in the file the assault_grenadier_mp40
and it got buffed last patch too, and i said to buff the RA and accuracy with vet after the removal of the STGs, + they gain smoke nades and RA with the upgrade already, if it's needed they could make the RA better for the upgrade
13 Jul 2019, 18:33 PM
#52
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1775 | Subs: 2

that is false they use the same weapon in the file the assault_grenadier_mp40


Nobody claimed it wasn't the same weapon?

Also I have no idea why people would ever want MP 40s to replace the STG 44s for Volks, it would make them terrible mainline infantry on any map that isn't urban. Imagine being forced to pick MP 40s on wide open maps when having to run into Penals, double BAR or M1919 Riflemen or double Bren 5 men Tommies. There is no veterancy accuracy or RA buff in the world that would save them from being mowed down on approach.

IMO their STG 44 isn't anything to write home about in the first place.
13 Jul 2019, 18:54 PM
#53
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3576



Nobody claimed it wasn't the same weapon?

Also I have no idea why people would ever want MP 40s to replace the STG 44s for Volks, it would make them terrible mainline infantry on any map that isn't urban. Imagine being forced to pick MP 40s on wide open maps when having to run into Penals, double BAR or M1919 Riflemen or double Bren 5 men Tommies. There is no veterancy accuracy or RA buff in the world that would save them from being mowed down on approach.

IMO their STG 44 isn't anything to write home about in the first place.
they could not upgrade their weapon and keep their long range dps which would be buffed by the vet accuracy

u know like vcoh, and by moving ober in tier 1 they can field them earlier to counter the upgunnend long range infantry, for bar they just need to close the range with mp40, or keep it at long range when they have vet for an equal chance

for approaching they already have smoke nades with the mp 40s and again they would be equal to as green
13 Jul 2019, 20:42 PM
#54
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 913 | Subs: 1

I'm just really confused by your suggestions then.

So my first issue is your vet rearrangement for volks. You're suggesting nerfing volks' vet 2 accuracy bonus to 15%? Or are you adding on another 15% so that they get 45%? Either of the two kind of seems like a bad idea...

My next issue is that you suggest removing 160 manpower worth of combat power from OKWs first ~4 minutes. I know OKW's early game is strong, but 160 is simply absurd. I can't see this going any other way except them getting absolutely dominated every single game in the first few minutes.

I also don't like the rak change (not conceptually, but just in the overall context). Raks then become worse for countering super light vehicles (m3/uc) meaning OKW loses even harder against these. Combine that with the other early manpower nerfs, and the early game probably becomes miserable. But then the AT gun itself becomes (presumably) the best in the game. The change just seems confused, taking away power where it's actually needed.

And then there are obers, which you probably won't even want since you're unlikely to be able to afford an expensive, high bleed squad since you're likely on the back foot at this point. You've probably been dominated for most of the early game, and now that you have your tier structure up, you probably want your overpowered AT gun to counter the allied light tanks, not an ATless, high bleed squad.

Finally, you claim the intent is to give units more specialized and defined roles, but you're actually doing the opposite. Instead of having sturms as the close range specialist, volks as the all rounder, and obers as the long range elite... you have sturms as the close range specialist, volks as the close range specialist, and obers as a high performing all rounder (until they get their lmgs). There's just more overlap in OKW infantry roles now. In fact, why wouldn't people just spam sturms since they can relatively cost efficiently take on tanks (with the schrecks), or be a cheap 240 manpower assault squad with faster repairs than current sturms?
13 Jul 2019, 23:00 PM
#55
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2877 | Subs: 1



Nobody claimed it wasn't the same weapon?

Also I have no idea why people would ever want MP 40s to replace the STG 44s for Volks, it would make them terrible mainline infantry on any map that isn't urban. Imagine being forced to pick MP 40s on wide open maps when having to run into Penals, double BAR or M1919 Riflemen or double Bren 5 men Tommies. There is no veterancy accuracy or RA buff in the world that would save them from being mowed down on approach.

IMO their STG 44 isn't anything to write home about in the first place.


Because then it would be a choice.
And if 250 mp infantry didn't get an assault package that was a straight improvement at all ranges with quite literally no reason to not get them at any point ever then perhaps the 280mp infantry would be able to have their weapon upgrades toned down and less mandatory themselves.

Plus then conscripts for a whoopin 10mp less (excluding their armful of manpower and fuel in exclusive upgrades) might have the same chance fighting them that they have fighting the vastly more expensive armed WFA infantry.

Upgrades should be about specialization, not just simply better across the board, or at least have the better across the board upgrades restricted to... Not the cheapest infantry that the faction can field who also can burn out cover from a mile away (which compounds the power of the STGs) and snare armour, and build cover.... For 250mp.

MP40s would mean it's a choice of cqb or long range not cqb but also better at long range. Make tactical choices a thing again...
14 Jul 2019, 02:08 AM
#56
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3576


an additional 15% acuracy so they can have god dps with their rifle at long range without upgrade

the nerf to mp would need to adjusted if u think so

why would the new rack be worse vs light vehicle ? is the m57 bad vs light vehicle ? and why would it be the best at gun ? only the first shoot is buffed all the other are m57 lvl without armor piercing rounds

ober can be acquired earlier to function similar to penal while bleeding less and coming later (and penal are no way bad)

and it does give specified roles, they need to pick the right upgrade: sturm can chose to be anti garrison or AT or support role, but they all need mutually exclusive upgrades and 2 sherck on pioneer are comparable to pfusilier they cost 40 mp less but get worse weapons and 2 less man
the ober are long range tho, they do have close range damage but still lose vs penal at close range if im not wrong, they would win at close range vs lower mp units but that obvs (same happens with rifle, IS etc)

and why would u want to spam sturm ? they need to spend 100 mp to get back the stgs or they are stuck with bad mp40s
14 Jul 2019, 08:15 AM
#57
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1775 | Subs: 2

Because then it would be a choice.


A choice to either get mowed down trying to approach with MP 40s or keep Kar 98Ks and lose all long range firefights versus Allied vetted upgraded infantry because their Kars are mediocre at best. That doesn't seem like very good choices to me. Toning down Allied mainlines would also have consequences for how well they'd match up with LMG Grens and Panzergrenadiers and Obersoldaten and G43 Panzerfusiliers, they are not solely balanced against STG 44 Volks. It's a delicate ecosystem we can't simply go mess around with.

I personally don't think the STG 44s are that impressive at all, and neither are Volks. They are cost efficient mainlines yes, and they are pretty versatile, but they do not really excel at anything else. Yes the STG 44s improve DPS at all ranges but it's not an overly impressive improvement compared to certain other weapon upgrades.


To make weapon upgrades choices rather than no brainers is a great concept, and one that I would happily back up, but sadly Relic implemented almost none of them. The game would need to be designed with these choices in mind. However at this point in the game's life cycle, infantry balance is so intertwined, we can't introduce it just for one unit because they would be at a major disadvantage and we'd have to adjust a dozen or more other units just to accommodate it.
14 Jul 2019, 08:35 AM
#58
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 490



A choice to either get mowed down trying to approach with MP 40s or keep Kar 98Ks and lose all long range firefights versus Allied vetted upgraded infantry because their Kars are mediocre at best. That doesn't seem like very good choices to me. Toning down Allied mainlines would also have consequences for how well they'd match up with LMG Grens and Panzergrenadiers and Obersoldaten and G43 Panzerfusiliers, they are not solely balanced against STG 44 Volks. It's a delicate ecosystem we can't simply go mess around with.

I personally don't think the STG 44s are that impressive at all, and neither are Volks. They are cost efficient mainlines yes, and they are pretty versatile, but they do not really excel at anything else. Yes the STG 44s improve DPS at all ranges but it's not an overly impressive improvement compared to certain other weapon upgrades.


To make weapon upgrades choices rather than no brainers is a great concept, and one that I would happily back up, but sadly Relic implemented almost none of them. The game would need to be designed with these choices in mind. However at this point in the game's life cycle, infantry balance is so intertwined, we can't introduce it just for one unit because they would be at a major disadvantage and we'd have to adjust a dozen or more other units just to accommodate it.


+1 Good post!
14 Jul 2019, 12:17 PM
#59
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 254



A choice to either get mowed down trying to approach with MP 40s or keep Kar 98Ks and lose all long range firefights versus Allied vetted upgraded infantry because their Kars are mediocre at best. That doesn't seem like very good choices to me. Toning down Allied mainlines would also have consequences for how well they'd match up with LMG Grens and Panzergrenadiers and Obersoldaten and G43 Panzerfusiliers, they are not solely balanced against STG 44 Volks. It's a delicate ecosystem we can't simply go mess around with.

I personally don't think the STG 44s are that impressive at all, and neither are Volks. They are cost efficient mainlines yes, and they are pretty versatile, but they do not really excel at anything else. Yes the STG 44s improve DPS at all ranges but it's not an overly impressive improvement compared to certain other weapon upgrades.


To make weapon upgrades choices rather than no brainers is a great concept, and one that I would happily back up, but sadly Relic implemented almost none of them. The game would need to be designed with these choices in mind. However at this point in the game's life cycle, infantry balance is so intertwined, we can't introduce it just for one unit because they would be at a major disadvantage and we'd have to adjust a dozen or more other units just to accommodate it.


+1 for the STG volks. It’s infuriating when usf players scream about them every 5 seconds.
14 Jul 2019, 14:32 PM
#60
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2877 | Subs: 1



A choice to either get mowed down trying to approach with MP 40s or keep Kar 98Ks and lose all long range firefights versus Allied vetted upgraded infantry because their Kars are mediocre at best. That doesn't seem like very good choices to me. Toning down Allied mainlines would also have consequences for how well they'd match up with LMG Grens and Panzergrenadiers and Obersoldaten and G43 Panzerfusiliers, they are not solely balanced against STG 44 Volks. It's a delicate ecosystem we can't simply go mess around with.

I personally don't think the STG 44s are that impressive at all, and neither are Volks. They are cost efficient mainlines yes, and they are pretty versatile, but they do not really excel at anything else. Yes the STG 44s improve DPS at all ranges but it's not an overly impressive improvement compared to certain other weapon upgrades.


To make weapon upgrades choices rather than no brainers is a great concept, and one that I would happily back up, but sadly Relic implemented almost none of them. The game would need to be designed with these choices in mind. However at this point in the game's life cycle, infantry balance is so intertwined, we can't introduce it just for one unit because they would be at a major disadvantage and we'd have to adjust a dozen or more other units just to accommodate it.

I guess I'm. Still a hold out for the old times when cost of a unit and teching mattered, when "I can't attack frontally with this so it's useless" wasn't an argument.
Its a Tactical rts where tactics take a back seat because slapping as much firepower onto any given unit and grinding things down from the front is the flavor of the game. Okw is a faction with 3 I gantry squads, 2 would be considered elite in their core lineup but the cheapest one is supposed to take the mantel of *insert literally any job but repairs here*
Garrison giving you trouble? Volks
Need firepower? Volks
Lights molesting you? Volks
Need cover? Volks
Cheapest reinforcement to recrew a weapon? Volks
Melt down that maxim? Volks

Remember when doing different tasks well was up to different units?

They have 2 other squads that could take up some spotlight with a bit of tweaking but here we are with the result of "just put it on volks and call it a day"
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