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russian armor

tier 0 and tier 1 OKW rework

6 Jul 2019, 23:17 PM
#21
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



And I already mentioned cost. No other reason Id mention the price drop.

What is it with you people and reading?


No you said " The only stat where panzerfusiliers are worse than volks is pure per-shot damage" is cost not a stat?
6 Jul 2019, 23:21 PM
#22
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449



No you said " The only stat where panzerfusiliers are worse than volks is pure per-shot damage" is cost not a stat?


Ebps wise it isnt even true. Youre paying an extra 30 mp for the squad itself. You're not paying any more for reinforcing them than volks are. (Correction edit: they are in fact 3 mp more expensive. Whoopie do)

But hey, if you want to be really specific, sure. You're going to have to wait a few extra seconds to call in your panzerfusilier squads. Fine. Doesn't change the fact that once on the field, the only inferior quality they have is 2 less damage per shot, while having superior aim time, accuracy, etc.
6 Jul 2019, 23:29 PM
#23
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963



Do you even read what people post on this forum? Unit stats? The only stat where panzerfusiliers are worse than volks is pure per-shot damage, 10 damage to 12 for volks. Try doing your own bloody research.
wrong https://coh2db.com/stats/#43
compare fusilier rifle to volks, they are worse
6 Jul 2019, 23:48 PM
#24
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449

wrong https://coh2db.com/stats/#43
compare fusilier rifle to volks, they are worse


'Updated 25.05.2017'

Just install Coh2 tools already if you don't want to believe me.

Bonus edit: the stats you give still show (even more pronounced) superior accuracy, aim time, etc.
6 Jul 2019, 23:54 PM
#25
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963



'Updated 25.05.2017'

Just install Coh2 tools already if you don't want to believe me.

Bonus edit: the stats you give still show (even more pronounced) superior accuracy, aim time, etc.
they did not change volks dps or p fusi dps, they are still the same, and this is the most used and up to date database made by cruzz so u insult cruzz u get the whole community against u

btw it's actaully updated to 2018 he forgot to write it
7 Jul 2019, 00:03 AM
#26
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449

they did not change volks dps or p fusi dps, they are still the same, and this is the most used and up to date database made by cruzz so u insult cruzz u get the whole community against u

btw it's actaully updated to 2018 he forgot to write it


So are you going to address the actual stats given then or just be outraged about it. Superior accuracy and aim time of panzerfusiliers need to be brought down to volks levels or the 2 point damage difference doesn't even really matter, something your own stats support given the simulated DPS difference at its absolute highest point only constitutes about a point or so of damage.
7 Jul 2019, 00:41 AM
#27
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963



So are you going to address the actual stats given then or just be outraged about it. Superior accuracy and aim time of panzerfusiliers need to be brought down to volks levels or the 2 point damage difference doesn't even really matter, something your own stats support given the simulated DPS difference at its absolute highest point only constitutes about a point or so of damage.
no they are worse at close range and same dps at long

now let's see u spin it "BuT ThEy HaVe BeTteR rAtE Of FiRe"

and if u dare to say that one point of dps is nothing, then news flash cons have less than 1 dps difference vs volks and p fusi, so they should cost the same or more as they have 6 men right ?
7 Jul 2019, 00:44 AM
#28
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449

no they are worse at close range and same dps at long

now let's see u spin it "BuT ThEy HaVe BeTteR rAtE Of FiRe"



Again, read my posts. You keep doing this thing where you either ignore or pretend not to notice what other people write on here.

It's a one point damage difference at absolute closest range, and doesn't account for the superior accuracy that they have at all ranges. The massive aim time difference is exactly why you see the DPS equalize at long range, but that's not even the whole story because the Panzerfusiliers are more accurate. It is also true that they have a faster rate of fire when moving, yes, but I haven't even mentioned that since my first post.

Why are you like this? Just read my posts so we don't have to go over the same points over and over.

Edit in response to your edit: Again, you ignore accuracy, a point where conscripts compare poorly to both volks and panzerfusiliers. Furthermore, conscripts have higher RA and weaker veterancy.
7 Jul 2019, 00:47 AM
#29
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963



Again, read my posts. You keep doing this thing where you either ignore or pretend not to notice what other people write on here.

It's a one point damage difference at absolute closest range, and doesn't account for the superior accuracy that they have at all ranges. The massive aim time difference is exactly why you see the DPS equalize at long range, but that's not even the whole story because the Panzerfusiliers are more accurate. It is also true that they have a faster rate of fire when moving, yes, but I haven't even mentioned that since my first post.

Why are you like this? Just read my posts so we don't have to go over the same points over and over.
.... dps counts accuracy and by ur logic cons > fusi as they have less than 1 dps differnce

i know u want ur argument to fit even if it'd baseless but this is a dps chart that count accuracy, u are just trying to deny the obvius with no proff ... like a fan boy who doesn't even know that fusi can't snare with shreck
7 Jul 2019, 00:49 AM
#30
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449

.... dps counts accuracy and by ur logic cons > fusi as they have less than 1 dps differnce

i know u want ur argument to fit even if it'd baseless but this is a dps chart that count accuracy, u are just trying to deny the obvius with no proff ... like a fan boy who doesn't even know that fusi can't snare with shreck


Alright, I'll bite. How is the dps being calculated with the accuracy here? Do you have the formula for it or is it some sort of straight multiplication?
7 Jul 2019, 00:52 AM
#31
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963



Alright, I'll bite. How is the dps being calculated with the accuracy here? Do you have the formula for it or is it some sort of straight multiplication?
go serch the "cruzz the more u know" thread, u will find the formula there, im not ur slave, i already pointed my proof in a site everyone acknowledges and uses if u try to deny the site itself good luck
7 Jul 2019, 03:07 AM
#32
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6308 | Subs: 1



Alright, I'll bite. How is the dps being calculated with the accuracy here? Do you have the formula for it or is it some sort of straight multiplication?


Values on their own are meaningless.

The only worth metric is DPS, which is kinda complicated formula. There are fringe cases (overkill) on which DPS won't tell you the whole story, but those mostly apply only on 1 on 1 comparisons.

DPS is basically calculated as:

Accuracy x Damage x (Long string of different variables*)

If you want the whole thing.


Either you use this
Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)

Time required:
(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)

DPS: total damage/time required


Or this


DPS being calculated as: Damage x Accuracy x (Shots per burst x Shots fired before reload / Total time to shoot including reload)

Total time to shoot including reload = ((Shoot burst duration + Fire aim time + Wind up + Wind down)*Shoots fire before reload) + (Cooldown duration * Reload frequency) + (Reload duration)
edo
7 Jul 2019, 10:48 AM
#33
avatar of edo

Posts: 13

Keep sturms the way they are, just reduce the AT package cost to 60. Keep it as a single shrek.

Volks already have the best accuracy of any mainline infantry in the game, and good veterancy all around. The STGs are fine and fit thematically far better than MP40s, whicg should remain doctrinal. Giving them normal grenades could be interesting, however, and then give the incendiary to the sturms. Not for free, however. No way lmao.

Increase range of the rak, remove mobile camo or lock behind vet 2 or something. Possible cost decrease. No other changes.

Obers I could see moving down to battlegroup hq, but with the mg34 still locked behind heavy panzer truck. Two trucks requirement isn't enough since everyone and their mother goes for the mechanized truck anyway and MG34 Obers are basically a hard counter to team weapons.

Panzerfusiliers should have their rifle accuracy, movement cooldown, and aim time lowered to volk standards so theyre actually worse, and then they can get a price drop. Drop the cost of their G43 upgrade a bit but remove the extra man it gives to compensate. Im tempted to say the shrek upgrade should only grant one as well. More than zooks ever could hope to be, double shreks essentially ends allied light vehicle use, particularly since they get a snare too, and two of shrek squads is enough to destroy medium armor all by themselves.

the panzershreck for the sturms must cost 50 like for all other units since it's only one, 50 per bazooka;
rack is fine so with the camo
obers i agree they should be avaible earlier but not about the lock of the mg34
panzerfusiliers must be fine so else they would useless like jager infantry, since they're also more expensive than volks. for the panzersrek 2 is right like for wermarcht for the assault granadiers
I would remove fuel cost of the mechanized truck transformation once it's building gets destroyed, like it works for american officers, it's unfair for obk too loose the possibility to call units and have to pay it full back once it gets destroyed
edo
7 Jul 2019, 10:49 AM
#34
avatar of edo

Posts: 13

just the starting ones, they can upgrade to stg for free after a truck is calld in

no they would be useless and too weak with mp40's, watch how british start, will a full rifleman squad, that is op if not flanked and covered by a mg
7 Jul 2019, 10:52 AM
#35
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2019, 10:49 AMedo

no they would be useless and too weak with mp40's, watch how british start, will a full rifleman squad, that is op if not flanked and covered by a mg
they would start with ass green mp-40s not the pioneers ones, those would be used if the full rework to sturm is allowed
7 Jul 2019, 11:04 AM
#36
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

I wonder what the actual performance difference between Volksgrenadiers and Panzerfusiliers is.

Volk kars do 12 damage vs Pfusi's 10 damage, but that also means Volksgrenadiers waste some of their damage (7*12 = 84.)

Pfusi veterancy is also slightly better with 40% extra accuracy vs 30% extra accuracy (other combat bonusses being the same). Do unupgraded vet 5 Panzerfusiliers beat unupgraded vet 5 Volksgrenadiers? If so, at what ranges?

Would be interesting to test.
12 Jul 2019, 03:12 AM
#37
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 262


....


That dps chart is the damage against a size 1 target factoring in all the weapon values. Volks grenadiers obviously have a dps advantage out to about 28 range. In addition, the fact that more of the damage output for fusiliers comes from accuracy makes them less effective at dealing small arms fire to light vehicles as all infantry rifles have guaranteed accuracy against even the smallest vehicle(due to the vehicle size). This is similar to how rear echelons are superior to riflemen squads at killing kubelwagens.

12 Jul 2019, 13:39 PM
#38
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 782 | Subs: 4

Slight problem here :
- Replace T0 Puppchen with Pak38/50mm (that kills heavies) : AT improvedx2
- Give Sturmpioneer 2x PanzerShrek instead of 1x : AT improvedx2
- Give Sturmpioneer Teller mine. : AT improvedx2
- Make Sturmpioneer 5x men (+1)
- Make PzFusilier : 6x men (+1) Give Teller mine/4x AT Guns: AT improvedx2
* KEEP * VolksGrenadier PzFaust : AT Same
- Make Teching cheaper...

So your proposal to lower OKW power is to DOUBLE THE AT POWER? :) Really?

Also stats-wise, the American M1 57mm is equivalent to the PAK40/75. So
+300% pen bonus is enough to pen a IS-2 100% of the time, and take out
Jackson with a T0 no fuel unit.

...
12 Jul 2019, 16:33 PM
#40
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 598

I wonder what the actual performance difference between Volksgrenadiers and Panzerfusiliers is.

Volk kars do 12 damage vs Pfusi's 10 damage, but that also means Volksgrenadiers waste some of their damage (7*12 = 84.)

Pfusi veterancy is also slightly better with 40% extra accuracy vs 30% extra accuracy (other combat bonusses being the same). Do unupgraded vet 5 Panzerfusiliers beat unupgraded vet 5 Volksgrenadiers? If so, at what ranges?

Would be interesting to test.


This is pretty easy to test in cheat tools.

Can setup pairs of volks v pfusiliers in open ground at whatever range and see.
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