Login

russian armor

Ostheer Mobile Defense Puma rework

3 Jul 2019, 20:09 PM
#21
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 60



Its anti-infantry performance is actually easily on par or even better than a normal Ostheer Panzer IV's. It compensates slightly weaker AOE with significantly less scatter and a faster reload. It's actually surprisingly good considering its anti-infantry is mostly a secondary role (the damage reduction aura being its primary role).




The normal P4 needs the top mounted MG to achieve roughly similar TTK, but that is under ideal circumstances (at medium distance and in neutral cover, giving the MGs maximum DPS).


The general for me is just an AI duty here. Yes, it is OK against infantry, but what is the point in this tank when we can have an ostwind to complete AI duties? Just 2 percent reduced damage?
3 Jul 2019, 20:55 PM
#22
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2369 | Subs: 5

The general for me is just an AI duty here. Yes, it is OK against infantry, but what is the point in this tank when we can have an ostwind to complete AI duties? Just 2 percent reduced damage?


It gives -20% damage reduction to anything around it. That means all your tanks and vehicles can take one extra shot and Brummbars and Panthers (and Elefant) can take two extra (160 dmg) shots. That's huge. Infantry and support weapons are more durable too, especially versus indirect fire.
3 Jul 2019, 23:03 PM
#23
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 3



It gives -20% damage reduction to anything around it. That means all your tanks and vehicles can take one extra shot and Brummbars and Panthers (and Elefant) can take two extra (160 dmg) shots. That's huge. Infantry and support weapons are more durable too, especially versus indirect fire.


Combine with hull-down for maximum effectiveness. :sibTux:
4 Jul 2019, 03:57 AM
#24
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2216 | Subs: 4

Put the puma in tier 2. Put the command panzer in t3.

Wow, finally people can't panic spit out puma then stall for cp4.

The puma was always fine, but the techless cp4 made it way way way too easy of a decision to get. The fuel price of the puma will actually set you back in the game now before you can get some decent AI on the field. A fair trade-off for locking in this doctrine.
4 Jul 2019, 07:30 AM
#25
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2019, 03:57 AMTobis
Put the puma in tier 2. Put the command panzer in t3.

Wow, finally people can't panic spit out puma then stall for cp4.

The puma was always fine, but the techless cp4 made it way way way too easy of a decision to get. The fuel price of the puma will actually set you back in the game now before you can get some decent AI on the field. A fair trade-off for locking in this doctrine.


With the current rework on Pzgren I'm not sure for that, T2 strat around Pzgren and Puma into T4 would probably be too strong.
Your infantry dominate the AI
Your light tank dominate the AT
You still have the HMG.42

You can't simply give Ostheer the best early/mid game infantry and best mid game TD for no extra fuel cost or extra munition cost.

Just for the record, 1st Pzgren hit the field at 4 minutes without the need to cap half of the map. And you can have 2 HMG42 and pioneers before with no delay.
4 Jul 2019, 08:42 AM
#26
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 593

Who needs mobile defence when you have festung armour? Ignore hull down, elephant for if allies TD spam, recon run, panic smoke, and command panzer so your grens/ support weapons don’t get shredded by indirect fire & your grens can compete with 5 man non Bren tommies! Wow! Only cost me 350mp and 125 fuel....
4 Jul 2019, 08:58 AM
#27
avatar of CorMovus

Posts: 18



Sry, but here is too much fanboys who is like to scream for "muh T70" and "USF weak early game" so even pshrek pgren are problem for them and OP support for T3 rush. What do you think will happen, when you will add puma to the same building, even after BP2 research?
(anyway, idea is bad)


You gave no reason why this idea is bad just pointing out that some players would find it to strong. PG with Pazshrek are the komplett Opposite in terms of at to a puma. Puma is a Vehicle, fast and with good long range capability while PG are inf, slow and only reliable in mid range. With PG you can maybe hold the ground but with a puma, you can even chase down mediums.
4 Jul 2019, 09:01 AM
#28
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 184

Who needs mobile defence when you have festung armour? Ignore hull down, elephant for if allies TD spam, recon run, panic smoke, and command panzer so your grens/ support weapons don’t get shredded by indirect fire & your grens can compete with 5 man non Bren tommies! Wow! Only cost me 350mp and 125 fuel....


There are some doctrines with the Command P4 and Panzer tactician combination: you could get Air Support with Blitzkrieg or a Pak43 with Festung Armor they all have their different uses but the most useful and interesting one for 1v1s or against allied light vehicles has been mobile defense which currently offers hardly anything above the others: the capping ability is situational, the Osttruppen usually come too late and often just bleed (only useful against snipers not against regular vetted or upgraded infantry) and the Puma cannot save OST against T70s, Greyhounds or whichever light vehicle it might be facing.

In Teamgames there is often an OKW player who could bring a puma if needed there is no need for a doctrine and the Elefant is always nice to have.
4 Jul 2019, 10:19 AM
#29
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

You gave no reason why this idea is bad just pointing out that some players would find it to strong. PG with Pazshrek are the komplett Opposite in terms of at to a puma. Puma is a Vehicle, fast and with good long range capability while PG are inf, slow and only reliable in mid range. With PG you can maybe hold the ground but with a puma, you can even chase down mediums.


If you add the Puma to T2 outright, you've already recreated the Mobidef strategy. If you add to to T0, you do exactly the same thing.

Furthermore, you'd also create another strategy where you skip T2 entirely in favour of the T0 Puma. Skipping T2 with Panzergrenadiers is already a divisive issue: the 200 MP 20 FU you save not building T2 is a huge deal.
4 Jul 2019, 15:13 PM
#30
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2216 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2019, 10:19 AMLago


If you add the Puma to T2 outright, you've already recreated the Mobidef strategy.

Why is that a bad thing? It SHOULD be a valid strategy.
4 Jul 2019, 15:52 PM
#31
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2019, 15:13 PMTobis
Why is that a bad thing? It SHOULD be a valid strategy.


If Relic agreed, they wouldn't have removed it from the game.
4 Jul 2019, 16:13 PM
#32
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2929

Honestly I would probably just remove the Battlephase 2 requirement and let Ostheer have a Puma within Tier 2, maybe increase it's cost a bit to compensate I feel like 80 would be fine. I think the old call-in Ostheer Puma was that cost. Right now it takes OKW about 130 fuel to obtain a Puma, with these changes the Ostheer Puma would require about 140-150 fuel which I think would be reasonable. If the doctrine becomes too powerful finally tying the Command Tank call-in to Tier 3 I think would be a good nerf just to prevent people from Puma spamming into Command Tank call-in. I feel Ostheer is the faction that could really use the Puma as I feel they struggle harder against light vehicles than OKW does. Usually OKW can at least get a Panzer II to tank damage for the Rak's whereas the Ostheer light vehicles aren't able to efficiently defend the Pak unless you build multiple of them which delays Tier 3.

+1

I'm not sure why command tank was never tied to tech to begin with.
5 Jul 2019, 18:23 PM
#33
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 418

I think putting it in tier 0 but requiring battlephase 2 would be ok. Putting it in tier 2 would cause the same balance issues as it used to when it was call in.
5 Jul 2019, 19:48 PM
#34
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 213

But the point would be to reduce the hefty fuel cost to unlock the puma. Take the T70 as example: 10 or 20 + 90 = 100~110 fuel
Puma: 40 + 90 + 20 = 150 fuel
I say these either should be roughly equal (which is not likely to be possible) or to find other methods that would prevent the puma being a too potent emergency vehicle as it was before, yet still having a good use in the doctrine.
5 Jul 2019, 22:44 PM
#35
5 Jul 2019, 23:33 PM
#36
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1

I fail to see how the only faction with 4 tiers and 3 sub tier techs has trouble finding a place to tie units to tech. There are 7 bloody semi steps! We can figure out somewhere to stick the damn thing...
6 Jul 2019, 02:47 AM
#37
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 593

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2019, 07:30 AMEsxile


With the current rework on Pzgren I'm not sure for that, T2 strat around Pzgren and Puma into T4 would probably be too strong.
Your infantry dominate the AI
Your light tank dominate the AT
You still have the HMG.42

You can't simply give Ostheer the best early/mid game infantry and best mid game TD for no extra fuel cost or extra munition cost.

Just for the record, 1st Pzgren hit the field at 4 minutes without the need to cap half of the map. And you can have 2 HMG42 and pioneers before with no delay.


Uhh I think he meant put it in the t2 building, not in bp1
6 Jul 2019, 13:42 PM
#38
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 213

I fail to see how the only faction with 4 tiers and 3 sub tier techs has trouble finding a place to tie units to tech. There are 7 bloody semi steps! We can figure out somewhere to stick the damn thing...


4 tiers, yes, but their pacing be like:

T1 --- T2 --------------------------------T3 --- T4

That 90 fuel for bp2 is massive
6 Jul 2019, 13:44 PM
#39
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7



4 tiers, yes, but their pacing be like:

T1 --- T2 --------------------------------T3 --- T4

That 90 fuel for bp2 is massive

Well, you can't have easily accessible BP2 and cheaper BP3 allowing for either T3 skip or easier transition.
That 90f BP2 is here because people wanted easier way to T4.
6 Jul 2019, 14:50 PM
#40
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1



4 tiers, yes, but their pacing be like:

T1 --- T2 --------------------------------T3 --- T4

That 90 fuel for bp2 is massive

As katitof said. It used to be an even and steady progression but people were like "hey! If I want a p4 it's too expensive to transition into panther spam, change that" so they did...
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
UTT2 Main Event

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Ostheer flag T.R. 6 squads, 4 maxim 2 engies
  • U.S. Forces flag °NOSMarkov.-
uploaded by KahootKing

Board Info

151 users are online: 6 members and 145 guests
SUCKmyCLOCK, van Voort, luvnest, Stormjäger, Vipper, cochosgo
104 posts in the last 24h
953 posts in the last week
4618 posts in the last month
Registered members: 22668
Welcome our newest member, 4jordane7522gM7
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM