Login

russian armor

For the Love Of God M1 Pack Howitzer

PAGES (14)down
3 Jul 2019, 10:28 AM
#81
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

I can't see any middle ground where a 300-400mp howitzer could ever be a good idea. Where the hell is that sweet spot?


Land Mattress.

Make the barrage make a loud noise when you activate it, make it lengthy and give it a wide barrage radius. The opponent has time to react, but their team weapons are screwed if they stay put.

Unless you want to severely buff the Pack Howitzer and add a fuel cost, a half size barrage is going to be awful, one way or another.


I think making it 45 FU and balancing it accordingly is a good route to take, personally.
3 Jul 2019, 10:35 AM
#82
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 531 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2019, 10:28 AMLago


Land Mattress.

Make the barrage make a loud noise when you activate it, make it lengthy and give it a wide barrage radius. The opponent has time to react, but their team weapons are screwed if they stay put.



I think making it 45 FU and balancing it accordingly is a good route to take, personally.


See, the problem there will be with absolutely absurd animations.

The land mattress fires a scatter of several rounds every second to achieve the sort of area saturation needed to justify its cost.

That's not something the single tube pack howitzer can replicate.
3 Jul 2019, 12:40 PM
#83
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

So I went and tested the barrage out a bit in CheatMod, and it appears the Pack Howitzer suffers the classic CoH 2 explosive design problem. It's really inaccurate, but hits like a truck when it's lucky enough to hit a squad.

Hugely unreliable, but incredibly powerful when it hits.

As a result, it's too much of an RNG cannon to be useful at clearing team weapons, but it's very strong sitting in the back line inflicting bleed and the occasional wipe.

The solution to this is pretty straightforward: damage down, reliability up. You can do that by squashing the AoE profile. It's what they did with the Brummbar.


Something like this, maybe?

  • Auto Attack reload from 7 to 12.
  • AoE radius from 5 to 8.
  • AoE Distance Near/Mid/Far from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0.75/1.5/6.




This particular AoE profile is probably a bit too powerful (I reckon this'd outright kill any team weapon that tries to tank the barrage) but illustrates the concept fairly well.
3 Jul 2019, 12:44 PM
#84
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13757 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2019, 12:40 PMLago
So I went and tested the barrage out a bit in CheatMod, and it appears the Pack Howitzer suffers the classic CoH 2 explosive design problem. It's really inaccurate, but hits like a truck when it's lucky enough to hit a squad.

Hugely unreliable, but incredibly powerful when it hits.

As a result, it's too much of an RNG cannon to be useful at clearing team weapons, but it's very strong sitting in the back line inflicting bleed and the occasional wipe.

The solution to this is pretty straightforward: damage down, reliability up. You can do that by squashing the AoE profile. It's what they did with the Brummbar.


Something like this, maybe?

  • Auto Attack reload from 7 to 12.
  • AoE radius from 5 to 8.
  • AoE Distance Near/Mid/Far from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0.75/1.5/6.




This particular AoE profile is probably a bit too powerful (I reckon this'd outright kill any team weapon that tries to tank the barrage) but illustrates the concept fairly well.

That's making it into a mortar.
USF already has a mortar that acts like you want pack howi to.
In T0.
3 Jul 2019, 12:45 PM
#85
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

That's making it into a mortar.
USF already has a mortar that acts like you want pack howi to.
In T0.


How so? The AoE profile you quoted doesn't support that assertion at all.
3 Jul 2019, 19:03 PM
#86
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690

The problem with trying to make a small field arty piece is twofold.

A - that sort of indirect firepower is normally tied to commanders, which allows a certain amount of expectation and counterplay.

B - Howitzers rely on huge shell AoE and area saturation to do damage. Unless you want to severely buff the Pack Howitzer and add a fuel cost, a half size barrage is going to be awful, one way or another.

If the barrage is free, but as good as a ZiS barrage, it'll be crippling to play against.

If it's free and more or less any worse, it'll be worthless against anything besides an OKW truck, because squads can just move, it'll never vet up, and the shells won't have the AoE and spread to be a general sector threat to stand in like an ML-20 or LeFH.

I can't see any middle ground where a 300-400mp howitzer could ever be a good idea. Where the hell is that sweet spot?

Saying make it a barrage is fine, but how? What would the shell spread be, what would the reload be, how big is each shell AoE?

I'm not anything close to a game designer so I wouldn't venture to give exact numbers, but IMO its AoE profile is good enough as is to fit a "mini howitzer" role, but maybe buff the damage slightly so it's better at killing fortifications and adjust the AoE profile so it's more or less the same against infantry, and give it a fairly fast reload (a little faster than it is now) on the barrage and a fairly low cooldown (less than what it is now). Not sure what should be done with HEAT.

Ofc that is all assuming the autofire gets removed and the unit maybe even gets a fuel cost added.
3 Jul 2019, 22:26 PM
#87
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1511


That's making it into a mortar.
USF already has a mortar that acts like you want pack howi to.
In T0.


How many mortars you aware of with a radius of 8?
5 Jul 2019, 01:24 AM
#88
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 675

Pak and scott feel cheesy and QoL bad because they are hard to counter especially for wehr without stuka or jp4. They are too far, too fast and deal accurate heavy damages.

While pak cost more than wehr mortar, usf also is able to float more mp and popcap and forward bases. I don't think we have good excuse for it.

Imo either reduce pak damage/accuracy or the range so that it is counterable without needing a fast pwafer.

Scott definitely needs it pop to go up to same as pwafer or higher because of the free repairs. Pwafer may have aoe advantage, but scott is dead accurate and much higher survivability. I dont see why it should be cheaper.
5 Jul 2019, 11:21 AM
#89
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 145

The scott could do with a few changes but the my main concerns with USF are the pak howitzer and white phosphorous morter ht as they are seriously over performing right now.
5 Jul 2019, 15:48 PM
#90
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1507

The scott could do with a few changes but the my main concerns with USF are the pak howitzer and white phosphorous morter ht as they are seriously over performing right now.


What I just don´t understand about USF design is why the faction that is supposed to be centered around strong mainline infantry (including free officer squads) and LVs also gets to have the best support weapons. Why does the .50 cal, M1 ATG and Pak Howi have to be so damn good? USF basically has better support weapons than Ost now while also having better mainline infantry. And on top of that there is the HE Sherman which is without the doubt the best AI medium tank, Jackson, the only TD without any weaknesses, and basically uncounterable Scotts.


White Phosphorous rounds are a huge PITA too. They should be made more expensive for how hard they are to deal with.
5 Jul 2019, 16:05 PM
#91
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3205 | Subs: 1



What I just don´t understand about USF design is why the faction that is supposed to be centered around strong mainline infantry (including free officer squads) and LVs also gets to have the best support weapons. Why does the .50 cal, M1 ATG and Pak Howi have to be so damn good? USF basically has better support weapons than Ost now while also having better mainline infantry. And on top of that there is the HE Sherman which is without the doubt the best AI medium tank, Jackson, the only TD without any weaknesses, and basically uncounterable Scotts.


White Phosphorous rounds are a huge PITA too. They should be made more expensive for how hard they are to deal with.


#USFneverOP
5 Jul 2019, 16:52 PM
#92
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1511



What I just don´t understand about USF design is why the faction that is supposed to be centered around strong mainline infantry (including free officer squads) and LVs also gets to have the best support weapons. Why does the .50 cal, M1 ATG and Pak Howi have to be so damn good?


You have to spend a minimum of 70 fuel just to field a .50 cal AND 57mm. Nobody else comes close to that. Ost spends min 60 to unlock pak 40 but they get the 42 in their HQ

Again not saying the pak howy is fine. But if you're confused about the performance of the .50 cal and 57mm, idk why. Timing. It's that simple. It's 90 fuel minimum if you want all 3. So you want all 3 and an LV? Good luck spending that
5 Jul 2019, 17:57 PM
#93
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 143



You have to spend a minimum of 70 fuel just to field a .50 cal AND 57mm. Nobody else comes close to that. Ost spends min 60 to unlock pak 40 but they get the 42 in their HQ

Again not saying the pak howy is fine. But if you're confused about the performance of the .50 cal and 57mm, idk why. Timing. It's that simple. It's 90 fuel minimum if you want all 3. So you want all 3 and an LV? Good luck spending that


Not only that but the 57mm has to pay a muni cost for it to even be effective against axis mediums. There are about 4 - 5 users on this forum that truly believe in their core that USF ATG and .50cal is OP.
5 Jul 2019, 18:44 PM
#94
avatar of Jean Bart

Posts: 17

For the love of god please fix the M1 pack howitzer "overperforming" is an understatement the unit as absolutely broken.

Its accuracy is way too high along with a ridiculous AOE and damage profile. 2 M1 paks will squad wipe everything with zero input from the player building it.



"Squad wipe everything" Against players who are afk? Sure! Cant you just proof how strong they are?
I can also argument that the MG42 is totally OP! Way too large angle and also an INSANE amount of damage.
A replay or something would help me to understand which problems you have.

Also: just idling around wont win you a game.
5 Jul 2019, 19:08 PM
#95
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 2



Not only that but the 57mm has to pay a muni cost for it to even be effective against axis mediums. There are about 4 - 5 users on this forum that truly believe in their core that USF ATG and .50cal is OP.


Not to mention I firmly believe nowadays no USF LV is really that powerful compared to OKW's Mechanized Truck, but I guess not being able to instantly click them dead, makes them OP too.
5 Jul 2019, 20:51 PM
#96
avatar of TheRestaurant

Posts: 132



What I just don´t understand about USF design is why the faction that is supposed to be centered around strong mainline infantry (including free officer squads) and LVs also gets to have the best support weapons. Why does the .50 cal, M1 ATG and Pak Howi have to be so damn good? USF basically has better support weapons than Ost now while also having better mainline infantry. And on top of that there is the HE Sherman which is without the doubt the best AI medium tank, Jackson, the only TD without any weaknesses, and basically uncounterable Scotts.


White Phosphorous rounds are a huge PITA too. They should be made more expensive for how hard they are to deal with.


Cause USF infantry is good, but not like at beginning. Axis factions now has good infantry options. And .50 cal is good but very very squishy, pro players often lose it cause a classic loop of death on retreat, so mg 42 is still better. M1 ATG is good , but not more than the Ostheer AT gun. Pak Howi is the real problem, especially on short range where it can't miss, so you can say goodbye at your infantry squads.
5 Jul 2019, 21:07 PM
#97
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 868



Not only that but the 57mm has to pay a muni cost for it to even be effective against axis mediums. There are about 4 - 5 users on this forum that truly believe in their core that USF ATG and .50cal is OP.
yep thats funny especially when usf still needs to pay more if want in same time OP pack howie and OP mg but okk #usfOp
5 Jul 2019, 22:14 PM
#98
avatar of konfucius

Posts: 111



What I just don´t understand about USF design is why the faction that is supposed to be centered around strong mainline infantry (including free officer squads) and LVs also gets to have the best support weapons. Why does the .50 cal, M1 ATG and Pak Howi have to be so damn good? USF basically has better support weapons than Ost now while also having better mainline infantry. And on top of that there is the HE Sherman which is without the doubt the best AI medium tank, Jackson, the only TD without any weaknesses, and basically uncounterable Scotts.


White Phosphorous rounds are a huge PITA too. They should be made more expensive for how hard they are to deal with.


and wehrmacht has 6 man squads now so I guess its even
6 Jul 2019, 03:20 AM
#99
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 597

Can usf get a sniper if the pak howitzer gets nerfed?


Or give the Ost a gun that 1 shots squads like the Pak does? A sniper you can retreat from, the Pak you just gotta pray that the blast radius and doesnt insta-kill your squad.

Also this would screw OKW.
6 Jul 2019, 09:20 AM
#100
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13757 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 03:20 AMCorsin


Or give the Ost a gun that 1 shots squads like the Pak does? A sniper you can retreat from, the Pak you just gotta pray that the "RAPE" mechanic bugs and doesnt insta-kill your squad.

Also this would screw OKW.

Have you ever used panzerwerfer?
Pack howi is supposed to fill that role of pwerfer you know.
PAGES (14)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

Canada 58
unknown 7
United States 5

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Oberkommando West flag N1cko
  • Oberkommando West flag Scotch1
  • Soviets flag Frosty
  • Soviets flag Beatricks Swire
uploaded by Frost

Board Info

163 users are online: 6 members and 157 guests
caffeine, Vidalista 40, SturmTigerGaddafi, Ritter, Khan, KiwiBirb
199 posts in the last 24h
1011 posts in the last week
5586 posts in the last month
Registered members: 68176
Welcome our newest member, rpfir100
Most online: 918 users on 27 Oct 2019, 01:03 AM