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Tric maps and peoples response

1 Jul 2019, 14:31 PM
#1
avatar of stuve

Posts: 19

Was playing this strange looking map today, i havent played in 2 months but by god was i apalled.

The Elevation alone is reason to give this map a bad review, any decent/experienced map maker knows how elevation is bad for vehicle targeting yet tric makes this monstrosity? is it to mock the community? how did relic approve of this abomination and counter artistic creation.

not only is the map infected with a rollercoaster type of elevation from west to east
Its like a big ant nest with a thousand channels between a tree stump heaven to block light vehicles

I implore relic to review who approve the maps for this great game, we need proffessional map makers who can make respectable maps if we intend to have a competetive community

maybe pay whiteflashreborn to make maps, he can atleast make non elevation and symmetric competetive maps

I played one game today and immediately enemy team is complaining and rage quits before saying this

https://imgur.com/a/7T8yhIH

thank you for checking this post out, take care and see you out on the battlefield comrades!
1 Jul 2019, 15:17 PM
#2
avatar of Surfer

Posts: 18

we should start patreon for the whiteflash MVGame
1 Jul 2019, 15:31 PM
#3
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2363

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jul 2019, 14:31 PMstuve
I implore relic to review who approve the maps for this great game, we need proffessional map makers who can make respectable maps if we intend to have a competetive community


Relic already does. The map makers have no control over what version of their maps gets added to the automatch rosters by Relic.

The only surefire way to stop your maps being put into automatch is to never upload them, which is what most mappers do these days.
1 Jul 2019, 16:49 PM
#4
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1136 | Subs: 1

I also voiced similar concerns about this map. Elevation changes were noted in my post as well.

original post: https://www.coh2.org/topic/90585/poltany-forest

where comments should be directed: https://www.coh2.org/topic/89454/ponary-forest-spring-automatch-discussion


1 Jul 2019, 17:53 PM
#5
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1239

Don't really agree with this. Ponary has a lot of elevation but it hasn't impacted gameplay that much for me. It´s really only that hill infront of the south base that is a problem IMO.

And saying WhiteFlash´s maps don't have elevation issues isn't really true either. The right VP on Crossroads had major elevation. (I guess this is fixed now?). Also on Alliance of Defiance there was elevation issues with the trench areas. When you build a B4 or Lefh/ML20 in the right spot in these trenches it was impossible to hit it with tanks unless you drove all the way around it towards the enemies base. AOD is also on my perma veto list now because the last changes made it worse and I never liked the map to begin with.

Biggest problem for 2v2 is IMO not Tric´s maps but how narrow many maps are. Especially Kharkov, Rails and Minsk.
1 Jul 2019, 18:38 PM
#6
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1830

I cant say much about this new map but its old news that automatch has maps that "not everyone loves". CoH1 had these too. The only maps that truly do not belong into automatch are bridge camp maps.

This map won't be part of the new tournament, and it would be rly boring to only play super competitive tourney-worth maps in automatch and nothing else, right? I don't see where the issue is.
1 Jul 2019, 19:12 PM
#7
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 851 | Subs: 2

As usual the real problem is the community. During the 2v2 map contest (that this map was made for) : no one had an opinion, no one tested it, and no one cared.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/62866/ponary-forest-2vs2

I think this map was designed to give a new and fun experience for those bored of playing on open field maps. Which Aerafield has pointed out.

Tric has been very open to change some things since its was added. Perhaps some better feedback in areas people have an issue with could get things fixed up? Pictures, etc.

1 Jul 2019, 20:28 PM
#8
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2108 | Subs: 16

Maps is a lost cause in CoH2.

Just move on.
1 Jul 2019, 21:29 PM
#9
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 217

As usual the real problem is the community. During the 2v2 map contest (that this map was made for) : no one had an opinion, no one tested it, and no one cared.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/62866/ponary-forest-2vs2

I think this map was designed to give a new and fun experience for those bored of playing on open field maps. Which Aerafield has pointed out.

Tric has been very open to change some things since its was added. Perhaps some better feedback in areas people have an issue with could get things fixed up? Pictures, etc.



You can’t test a map unless you play competitively. Most people jaut play automatch and rarely bother to check this stuff out.

Why not do some quality marketing for a change? Have testing days where people can hop on the coh2 discord to play on some map being tested, which would then be casted on twitch. You’d get a ton of twitch views, streamers like vonivan and AE would probably pick up on it and possibly host it, and people would compete in these maps and give useful feedback.
1 Jul 2019, 21:34 PM
#10
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 851 | Subs: 2


You can’t test a map unless you play competitively. Most people jaut play automatch and rarely bother to check this stuff out.

Why not do some quality marketing for a change? Have testing days where people can hop on the coh2 discord to play on some map being tested, which would then be casted on twitch. You’d get a ton of twitch views, streamers like vonivan and AE would probably pick up on it and possibly host it, and people would compete in these maps and give useful feedback.

I have been begging people for weeks to check some maps. No takers. Vipper is the only brave man with the huevos to test a map.

For the 2v2 map contest this map was in, people got relic supply I think if they tested the maps. It was pushed hard to test the maps. But still very few did. Some people started out with great looks on a couple maps then disappeared. It can be a lot of work to do it well. So I am not complaining, I greatly appreciate any work anyone does for the game.
1 Jul 2019, 21:38 PM
#11
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 217


I have been begging people for weeks to check some maps. No takers. Vipper is the only brave man with the huevos to test a map.

For the 2v2 map contest this map was in, people got relic supply I think if they tested the maps. It was pushed hard to test the maps. But still very few did. Some people started out with great looks on a couple maps then disappeared. It can be a lot of work to do it well. So I am not complaining, I greatly appreciate any work anyone does for the game.


In all honesty I heard about the map contest but I didn’t have friends willing to test maps. My friends and I rarely play and when we do we go 3v3 automatch, not testing maps.

People are like fish, they go where the current is taking them. Make the map testing somehow attractive to people, via some reward for best replay, or twitch streaming or something that’ll make them wanna join. But also make sure to somehow organize matches because most people don’t have the will or friends to set up 2v2 custom games to test maps.
2 Jul 2019, 03:46 AM
#12
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 851 | Subs: 2

In all honesty I heard about the map contest but I didn’t have friends willing to test maps. My friends and I rarely play and when we do we go 3v3 automatch, not testing maps.

I appreciate your honesty and I like your idea of getting something together that is more formal.
Taking time to test a map that may not get into the game is a waste of time. So I totally get people not doing it. Personally, I do not have a position in the community to do something like a formal test phase.

But testing a map right now should be fun for everyone. You get to try out some crazy new strat with commanders and there is no pressure. But people are afraid to look bad, lose, etc. But all you need is about 15 minutes of decent play to figure out most of the map.

Realistically you need two phases.
PHASE 1: Everyone tries the map out and we flesh out any major bugs, see where fights take place, see if there is some strat that can be abused, etc.

PHASE 2: You need top level players to test the map for balance, abuses, etc. But in team games, even this may not tell you much. Too many other variables.
2 Jul 2019, 23:34 PM
#13
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1083 | Subs: 1

I'm don't want to publicly comment on the quality of the maps your talking about here, but...
-----------------------------------------

Just to be clear the map makers do and , as my experience goes, always have control over what version of their maps get added to the automatch roster by Relic. If you want a map updated you can PM Sturmpanther if you already have a map in automatch and talk to him about what version you need in there. It doesn't happen overnight but it is in the control of the mappers. If mappers don't have control over their own maps in ladder that is a giant problem that would need fixing ASAP, but again I've never heard this accusation until now and have seen no evidence for it.
-----------------------------------------

I do want to point people to this brief piece on testing which I've written about. I've heard a lot of things about testing but I've never heard anyone actually blame the community as a group for the perceived failure of a map. If people don't come and test it, that is a reality the mapper has to deal with by either harassing people on an individual level to play or deal with the fact that there isn't as much testing as they would like. It certainly isn't ideal that people don't want to test unfinished maps as much as mappers would like, but a major part of making a map is creating a relationship with people to test it. Most mappers I've talked to don't understand that, but you can't blame the community if a map has problems.

Its the mappers job to understand what they want out of a map design, concept the intended goals, analyze design decisions, understand in a deep sense the fundamental mechanics of the game, understand the tools of the worldbuilder to get the job done, create relationships with people on an individual level to achieve adequate testing, and filter out your own bias and the testers emotion from the feedback process. And as the article I linked says "If time passes and you aren't happy with your map, don't be afraid to start over." Starting over is entirely underrated in terms of design potential if the map isn't cutting it. Mappers must focus on quality, not quantity.
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If maps is a lost cause the entire franchise is a lost cause, that isn't an exaggeration. You cant have competitive games on bad maps, you cant balance factions on bad maps and most importantly, you cant have fun on bad maps. COH2 is old its true, but as many people know there is plenty of room for map improvements to make the game better than it is, there are a lot of hardworking mappers that have been doing that. If you want everyone to stop working on maps and just accept what we have I would oppose that.
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I appreciate the vote of confidence.

Cheers
2 Jul 2019, 23:49 PM
#14
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1348 | Subs: 3

In other news. I am one person. I tried to give something new to the community from my own time, for free, with nothing to gain but people complaining, I was more than open to feedback when it was given in an actual constructive manner. The problem? You get maybe two posts, and they contradict each other. So who do you listen to?

I was lucky enough to get some focused testing from top players on these immediately AFTER their implementation to automatch, at which point I personally requested them to be removed so we could adjust the changes nobody was willing to test BEFORE, to avoid a lot of issues that were missed, as I am only one person, only so much I can do as a single entity. With that being said as well it is not like I didn't look for people to test. For almost 2 months prior to their implementation, and then again when the 2v2 contest (as horrific as that whole ordeal was).

This being said, these aren't "tournament" maps, they are something different, if Relic has the proper tools for a separate in game automatch for testing rotation maps, a lot of the issues from this would be fixed, or an event, or something... but again we tried that with the 2v2 contest and well, look at the results, there was like 15 posts total, and about 4 of them were well thought out, not just "map good" or "map bad" responses. That and the contest had rules broken or ignored out right from the very get go. If you don't like the maps veto them. I'm sure you can handle that stuve, I believe in you.

That and the "quality marketing", that's not up to me and was done for the 2v2 contest, with VonIvan, and still yielded no results. Most people are vocal minority of complaining, such as stuve. A vast majority of people don't even care what map it is, they don't even veto, they get home play a few games and go about their day. The community on coh2.org is such a small section of the community and is extremely elitist, and you would think this would spurn them to provide feedback when requested, but it doesn't. Only after a map is put into the gauntlet that is automatch. This is also why there are no mappers left, because we don't really get the proper support from relic or the community (unless you are an old vcoh mapper, then its just a popularity contest, which has been proven over and over again), compound that with the wonderful targeted harassment campaigns of certain individuals, such as stuve. To be totally honest, at this point in the games life cycle, it is amazing we get content at all.


Aerafield said it best in his post. The map wasn't made for tournaments, the map was intentionally designed to be different to mix things up, the players that did test it, had their complaints fixed, and still enjoy the map for what it is. A unique experience to break up the slog of automatch. I tried my best to get them tested, the problem is nobody cares until they are in automatch, and there isn't anything I can really do about that.

3 Jul 2019, 00:19 AM
#15
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1348 | Subs: 3



Mappers do not have control over what version is uploaded. Westwall? Wrong version for almost a year in automatch despite correct versions being sent, how about Heidelberg, wasn't supposed to be in automatch, how about the map with the mines in the middle that wasn't supposed to be in automatch, how about Pripyat Sector that wasn't supposed to be in automatch?. How about the bugged uploads? Vilshanka is entirely fragged, and potok wouldn't even appear after an upload, Deutz has just... disappeared due to an upload issue again.

And yah, it is the communities falling, you know who is in the community? Everyone. If you want to "harass" people on an individual level, go for it, some people do not have the time and energy, that includes the mapper and the 20 or so "top players" that are left, not to mention time zones, ect;

There is a lot of contradiction to your post just from recent months in posts from you all over the place, perhaps follow your own advice? Also just because you write something, doesn't make it true or factual. It is your opinion, and it should be treated as such.

Also "a lot of hard working mappers" is a pretty great exaggeration. We have at most "9" and is if you count people who can open up the builder and make basic changes. People I would actually trust to listen and not have their egos involved? 3-4, and people that actually do the work in a timely manner and quickly? 1-2.

You also will never have a balanced map, because balance still isn't figured out, factions aren't figured out, core design isn't figured out, and the maps are just a reflection of whatever the current balance is. That and the "path of least resistance" that comes from players that have played this game for years, will just default to the same maps over and over again, regardless. You should see the in game client when new maps get released. Nobody from the "top players" is even playing the maps, half of them are sat watching someone else play it until they figure out the abuse for it. How many years did it take to fix major issues on Kholodny?

What happens if they increase the AoE of the bofors or the mortar pit?

If I could run SMC for 2v2 and up I would, but considering players don't even check in, or really care unless there is 5k or more at stake. I doubt that any of it will continue in current form as there is no community even left at this point.

The reason you haven't heard about any of this is because you don't actually care about the community, you care about how you look, and you alone, that has become increasingly obvious the last year or so.
3 Jul 2019, 01:36 AM
#16
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 851 | Subs: 2

Just to clear things up for everyone (since Whiteflash got the wrong idea), I am not "blaming" the community. I am trying to ENGAGE the community and MOTIVATE them to take part. Hear it like "Hey guys, we did this to ourselves. So lets fix it." The point I made was "testing maps is a waste of time if its not guaranteed to be in automatch." The 2v2 maps were destined for automatch. That was the whole point of the contest.

The harsh reality is you need a lot of plays to find things out.

FIRST ROUND:
Play some games vs the AI. This finds a lot of things that will never be found by a human. Like hidden paths thru areas you did not know existed. Places where units can jump objects and become trapped. You can play around with pathing etc.

Playing the AI does not tell you how the map will play because the AI has no real strategy like rush the fuels and camp the cutoffs.

SECOND ROUND:
Play as many games as possible with as many players as possible. No one plays exactly like anyone else. People put units in weird places or setup healing, buildings, etc in weird places. People blob or play MG spam, etc. The more games you get in the more you will know about a map.

THIRD ROUND:
Get the pros to play it. Get good players and see how they move around the map and abuse things they see. Are areas to easy to fight into for a certain faction, is the fighting stagnant, etc.


There are all kinds of maps for all kinds of people. Lets use our vetos and work together. I absolutely hate playing City17 and Essen Steelworks. But I realize others do enjoy them. So I spend a lot of time looking at them constantly looking to help those guys out. Because I am just one of the 5K+ players everyday.
3 Jul 2019, 03:12 AM
#17
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1083 | Subs: 1



Ah I was not aware it was this bad...Relic if you are reading this you guys to stay on top of the map pool issues like this :/ this is really bad...especially if we have a wrong version of a map and it is fixed waiting in the winds, thousands of matches are being played and an experience is being had that could have been better if only for an up to date upload by Relic is completed. It wasn't this sloppy in the COH1 days... That is my bad Tric I wasn't aware it was that bad.
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Disagree here sorry, I have a steam list of people who will test stuff if I PM them, i built this list of willing map testers up over years, they wont all do it all the time but it is effective enough, not saying my way is best but it has worked for me and gets the job done.
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? k ?
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Always agreed
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There aren't many mappers for sure, fair enough
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Balance will never be fleshed out 100%, it will asymptotically reach that with any luck but you have to design around the OP and UP stuff in the game, also broken things like elevation changes in COH2. If you don't design around them the map quality will suffer, nothing new here this has been the case since 2006.
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As far as time put into COH goes, friends family work and RL takes priority over COH2 these days, I wish I could put as much time into COH as I did back in the college/immediate post college days. As far as the rest goes I am sorry if what I'm putting out comes off that way to you.
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I apologize here, I didn't mean anything by it. Just dont want mappers to throw a map up and expect floods of people to help them, if I had a nickle for every time a mapper messaged me asking why people arent giving them feedback and they put in no effort to engage individuals. In my experience, you have to go to the players directly, events have very minimal impact and normal players just dont have the skillset to formalize quality feedback. And the spirit of your response I am totally behind it.


Cheers guys
3 Jul 2019, 04:33 AM
#18
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 851 | Subs: 2

I apologize here, I didn't mean anything by it. Just dont want mappers to throw a map up and expect floods of people to help them, if I had a nickle for every time a mapper messaged me asking why people arent giving them feedback and they put in no effort to engage individuals. In my experience, you have to go to the players directly, events have very minimal impact and normal players just dont have the skillset to formalize quality feedback. And the spirit of your response I am totally behind it.

Cheers guys

Nah, its fine. I always sound upset and salty. People tell me to calm down all the time in RL. When I am totally relaxed. So I was just referencing your text so people knew what I was babbling about. And that being a douche was not my intention. So its good to get that pointed out.

And I agree with the fact that it takes time to build relationships with people. So they trust you enough to waste time testing a map. I do not have that skillset. And I really wish it was not a requirement because it holds mappers back.

I AM ALL FOR MAP CONTESTS. Mappers focus on maps. The maps get tested. Amen. We should have another one and this time point out a little bit what we are looking for before hand so people do not waste time making some crazy map that will never get used? Have like a list of specifications or something?

Until then, SMC and the WF+TruX streams are the place to get maps tested consistently. As you guys have been around and gained the communities trust. Well done!

On that note Ishtari+Crew, Duffman+Crew, and Sturmpanther+Crew tested some 4v4 maps today and it was a blast. So maybe someday I will have gained enough trust to have a list of people as well.
3 Jul 2019, 05:08 AM
#19
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1083 | Subs: 1


Nah, its fine. I always sound upset and salty. People tell me to calm down all the time in RL. When I am totally relaxed. So I was just referencing your text so people knew what I was babbling about. And that being a douche was not my intention. So its good to get that pointed out.

And I agree with the fact that it takes time to build relationships with people. So they trust you enough to waste time testing a map. I do not have that skillset. And I really wish it was not a requirement because it holds mappers back.

I AM ALL FOR MAP CONTESTS. Mappers focus on maps. The maps get tested. Amen. We should have another one and this time point out a little bit what we are looking for before hand so people do not waste time making some crazy map that will never get used? Have like a list of specifications or something?

Until then, SMC and the WF+TruX streams are the place to get maps tested consistently. As you guys have been around and gained the communities trust. Well done!

On that note Ishtari+Crew, Duffman+Crew, and Sturmpanther+Crew tested some 4v4 maps today and it was a blast. So maybe someday I will have gained enough trust to have a list of people as well.


Keep it up, Cheers man :thumb:
3 Jul 2019, 11:31 AM
#20
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 217

I know I’m repeating myself a bit, but I believe map makers should organize the actual games. Most people just play automatch because it’s quick and easy.
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