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russian armor

15 minute Tiger/Tiger Ace in 4v4

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20 Jun 2019, 22:41 PM
#61
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 187



The CP system also worked perfectly well in 1v1 and 2v2. I see no reason why they couldn't use both, with CP req possibly reduced down to 10 or so. There's absolutely no reason for heavy tanks to be a cp0 unlock when so many other units and abilities are tied to CP levels.


As I said before, it doesn't, i.e. Command Panther and IS2 meta.

It's why most call-ins have been removed and tied to tech.
20 Jun 2019, 22:45 PM
#62
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:41 PMFarlion


As I said before, it doesn't, i.e. Command Panther and IS2 meta.

It's why most call-ins have been removed and tied to tech.


So have both as a requirement. I'd be more than willing to wager it can be done, and it'd please everybody not invested in rushing a HT out in 15 minutes.
20 Jun 2019, 23:10 PM
#63
avatar of Neneko007

Posts: 12

Honestly the only thing allies need are reliable AT. At the moment USF and Soviets got no reliable AT. If they don't rush TDs. They are going to lose because AT guns are not reliable against anything above a panther. Now people may argue we'll you need more than one, but then no only did you sacrifice field power by not having enough infantry to deal with been and volk blobs. Which will eventual be your demise
20 Jun 2019, 23:23 PM
#64
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

We thought already about it, but this would be the last way to do ( if nothing else works). We would like to have it without CPs.

So right now i think something about 1-2 min build time could already work. And yes with like Tigerace with 9 CP but need t4 on the field can ofc work.


If you look at my little poll I made recently tech+CP requirement seems to be what nearly 2/3 of the people that voted want. This is a community patch after all ;)

https://www.coh2.org/topic/91865/timing-of-heavy-and-super-heavy-tanks-across-all-game-modes

For me its the only way to have heavy tank timing similar across all game modes if we don't want to touch ressource inflation and fuel transfer in the big teamgames (although this would be even better). It doesn't matter how long the build time becomes heavy tanks without CP requirement will be always way faster available in 3vs3 & 4vs4.

Maybe the most important thing: Before this patch you got the heavy AT counter off-map abilities at the same time as you got the heavy tanks out to have a chance to finish them off in a tank battle. So theoretically this abilities have to be moved to tech requirement too if you stick to tech requirements... this change really affects more than just tank battle timing, it affects the whole construct of CP requirements for units and abilities.

Please don't get me wrong I appreciate your work and the bunch of time you guys are investing although you have RL stuff to do. The patch is a real good one overall.
20 Jun 2019, 23:51 PM
#65
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449



If you look at my little poll I made recently tech+CP requirement seems to be what nearly 2/3 of the people that voted want. This is a community patch after all ;)

https://www.coh2.org/topic/91865/timing-of-heavy-and-super-heavy-tanks-across-all-game-modes

For me its the only way to have heavy tank timing similar across all game modes if we don't want to touch ressource inflation and fuel transfer in the big teamgames (although this would be even better). It doesn't matter how long the build time becomes heavy tanks without CP requirement will be always way faster available in 3vs3 & 4vs4.

Maybe the most important thing: Before this patch you got the heavy AT counter off-map abilities at the same time as you got the heavy tanks out to have a chance to finish them off in a tank battle. So theoretically this abilities have to be moved to tech requirement too if you stick to tech requirements... this change really affects more than just tank battle timing, it affects the whole construct of CP requirements for units and abilities.

Please don't get me wrong I appreciate your work and the bunch of time you guys are investing although you have RL stuff to do. The patch is a real good one overall.


A great point about the abilities directly designed to combat heavy late-game armor, like P-47 rockets, which still comes out at CP12.

Why should these abilities be CP-locked if heavy tanks aren't? Again, if call-in stalls are considered the main damage to the game why not have both CP and tech reqs?
21 Jun 2019, 00:17 AM
#66
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339



A great point about the abilities directly designed to combat heavy late-game armor, like P-47 rockets, which still comes out at CP12.

Why should these abilities be CP-locked if heavy tanks aren't? Again, if call-in stalls are considered the main damage to the game why not have both CP and tech reqs?


Thanks, at this abilities it is most obvious. But still it is only the tip of the iceberg.

You may say for instance: I need my Calliope to strip the Tiger of its infantry/team weapon support, so that my teammate or I by myself can move in with the flanking tanks without drawing too much fire and getting snared in a second (which leads to the destruction of flanking tanks most probably). But with 10CP requirement Calliope comes later than the rushed tech-bound Tiger. Conclusion: You have to bring the Calliope into tech structure too. Then you will notice that the change of the Calliope affects even more other units... and so on and so forth

Calliope was only one of many examples. Just want to point out how much depends on a single simple change. It may look good for one gamemode but can easily screw up what is left of balance in other gamemodes totally.
21 Jun 2019, 08:20 AM
#67
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2607 | Subs: 1



A great point about the abilities directly designed to combat heavy late-game armor, like P-47 rockets, which still comes out at CP12.

Why should these abilities be CP-locked if heavy tanks aren't? Again, if call-in stalls are considered the main damage to the game why not have both CP and tech reqs?




Thanks, at this abilities it is most obvious. But still it is only the tip of the iceberg.

You may say for instance: I need my Calliope to strip the Tiger of its infantry/team weapon support, so that my teammate or I by myself can move in with the flanking tanks without drawing too much fire and getting snared in a second (which leads to the destruction of flanking tanks most probably). But with 10CP requirement Calliope comes later than the rushed tech-bound Tiger. Conclusion: You have to bring the Calliope into tech structure too. Then you will notice that the change of the Calliope affects even more other units... and so on and so forth

Calliope was only one of many examples. Just want to point out how much depends on a single simple change. It may look good for one gamemode but can easily screw up what is left of balance in other gamemodes totally.


Great post.
21 Jun 2019, 09:23 AM
#68
avatar of blancat

Posts: 601

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:41 PMFarlion


As I said before, it doesn't, i.e. Command Panther and IS2 meta.

It's why most call-ins have been removed and tied to tech.


only tied to tech makes problem more be worse


if we want to solve this problem, We need to apply the requirements to two(cp limit and tied to tech)

ex) Command panther need 12cp and T3 building

Tiger ace need 15cp and T4 building

IS-2 need 13cp and T4 building
21 Jun 2019, 10:39 AM
#69
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2008 | Subs: 1

Honestly the only thing allies need are reliable AT. At the moment USF and Soviets got no reliable AT. If they don't rush TDs. They are going to lose because AT guns are not reliable against anything above a panther. Now people may argue we'll you need more than one, but then no only did you sacrifice field power by not having enough infantry to deal with been and volk blobs. Which will eventual be your demise


it's not like getting a 2nd at gun late game will instantly make you lose all or most inf battles

21 Jun 2019, 13:23 PM
#70
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 60



Drawing in the penal card is nothing but humorous when you play a faction with the best MG at t0 with the price of the worst MG in the game and PG's arriving super early now alongside potent mainline which Soviets are missing.

"Amazing commander". Did you just really call it an amazing commander? Its so amazing it never sees play in high tier games because its missing good call-in units which incase u didnt get yet, Soviets rely on.Less so than before but still do. Radio intercept <--- since when was this OP? maybe in the 4k rank games you play it is OP.

It is not the same level of efficiency, it's a better level of efficiency. Tiger Ace is also arguably better than IS-2 and doesnt have a drunk gunner who misses 9/10 the time. Only selling point of it is the armor, which is hardly a sellin point at all at that cost.

You do also realize soviet skillplanes only attack infantry and do minimal damage since the nerfs and get shot down in mere seconds if any AA even looks their way? 222's and ostwinds take care of them fast, just like the meatgrinder takes care of Overwatch, except overwatch is 5x better of an ability..

But u just proved my point how , IF soviets were to get a doc like this we would have people crying over it LMAO. Soviets are just an example since they mirror Ostheer also..u can have ur radio intercept and skillplanes, I'll gladly take IS-2 ace and 0 CP guards with PPSH and Oorah. Deal?


Dat allied fanboys..
21 Jun 2019, 13:25 PM
#71
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 60

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jun 2019, 09:23 AMblancat


only tied to tech makes problem more be worse


if we want to solve this problem, We need to apply the requirements to two(cp limit and tied to tech)

ex) Command panther need 12cp and T3 building

Tiger ace need 15cp and T4 building

IS-2 need 13cp and T4 building


Do you really want to get rid from those units at all? With your proposal only command panther will be reliable, I guess.
21 Jun 2019, 13:35 PM
#72
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 974 | Subs: 2

That... HeavyTank with CP ---> equal to Rockets Cp

following that rule ...
KT CP ---> 2 su85

or two jacksons


Is an example, to get a idea
21 Jun 2019, 13:58 PM
#73
avatar of Musti

Posts: 91

I really don't understand what is the problem here with dual requirements
1vs1 CPs don't matter, because you get them before you tech anyway
4vs4 tech doesn't matter, because you get it way before you have enough CP anyway.
Having both requiremnts covers both 1vs1 stalling strategies and 4vs4 rushes
I mean, if you go with a fuel funneling strat you can probably get a tiger out before UKF can get a Valentine (because its locked by CPs) and apparently that's not a problem?
21 Jun 2019, 14:27 PM
#74
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2607 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jun 2019, 13:58 PMMusti
I really don't understand what is the problem here with dual requirements
1vs1 CPs don't matter, because you get them before you tech anyway
4vs4 tech doesn't matter, because you get it way before you have enough CP anyway.
Having both requiremnts covers both 1vs1 stalling strategies and 4vs4 rushes
I mean, if go with a fuel funneling strat you can probably get a tiger out before UKF can get a Valentine (because its locked by CPs) and apparently that's not a problem?


But would it be fair for the rest of callin units? Why the Calliope couldn't get the same treatment for example?
And abilities specially design to counter those units such rocket strafe, they would suddenly come way later.
21 Jun 2019, 14:42 PM
#75
avatar of Musti

Posts: 91

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jun 2019, 14:27 PMEsxile


But would it be fair for the rest of callin units? Why the Calliope couldn't get the same treatment for example?
And abilities specially design to counter those units such rocket strafe, they would suddenly come way later.

I think you misunderstood me (or maybe I didn't make my point clear enough), I am FOR having dual requirements, specifically for that reason. It helps both gamemodes

I mean, whatever happens I hope we can get all units through ASAP, because right now nothing changed in 1vs1 (since most HT can still be stalled for) and now we have to deal with Tiger rushes in 4v4s because of the new commanders, either everyone should get their HTs by 15 minutes or no one.
21 Jun 2019, 16:02 PM
#76
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

We thought already about it, but this would be the last way to do ( if nothing else works). We would like to have it without CPs.

So right now i think something about 1-2 min build time could already work. And yes with like Tigerace with 9 CP but need t4 on the field can ofc work.


Why? Requiring T4 and command points seems like the optimal solution.

You simultaneously prevent heavy stalls in 1v1 and heavy rushes in teamgames.
21 Jun 2019, 17:19 PM
#77
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3213 | Subs: 1

Heavy tanks should have a CP requirement just so that stock units get their fair usage. I remember "ignore your core units and pump out heavy armour asap" it's lame. Heavy tanks should be a late game jewel for your army, not a rushed unit. In a stomp of a match it disallows a come back and promotes the idea that stalling for that heavy tank is a good game plan, which it shouldn't be. Heavy tank stall should. Be. Dead.

A penalty for not fuelling teching being applied to heavy armour was well received and think it should enter scope again but the cp requirement must stay as well.
21 Jun 2019, 18:04 PM
#78
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1953 | Subs: 3

Heavy tanks should be a late game jewel for your army, not a rushed unit.


Then we'd keep the problem that heavy tanks are generally not very useful because they come out so late they have to go up against vetted ATGs and TDs and rarely achieve anything.

I personally think a Heavy Tank rush should be a strategic option, just like how for example Ostheer can choose to skip T1 and rush light vehicles. Imo it should be balanced by risk and reward and opportunity, probably with a build time to help smooth out the shock timing, but not by an artificial checklist.

Rushing a Tiger or Tiger Ace right now is not an automatic win as long as the enemy suspected it and got a TD, as even a single TD can greatly mitigate the heavy's impact for almost half the price. A rushed Tiger/Ace will not have a lot of support and going up against a pre-built TD has a good chance of backfiring. But it does punish those who are either completely behind or ignored all the signals and got medium tanks or AI tanks or went for a lot of light vehicles. It would give heavies a strategic role (besides their tactical role of damage sponging and spearheading) that they currently somewhat lack.


So TLDR personally I do not like the idea of a dual requirement because it feels too artificial to me. But if it proves to be the only solution and if it's what everyone wants...
21 Jun 2019, 20:12 PM
#79
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

There is one more thing I want to add to the discussion.

CP structure of units and abilities is one of the few real balanced mechanisms that actually work in CoH2 and reward you for taking action. Let me explain this:


1) CP timing is not influenced by map size / player count /gamemode.
2) CPs reward players to take the fight to their opponents instead of digging in at ressource points because you get them mainly for dealing and receiving damage.
3) All CP dependent units/abilities are directly and transparent assigned to a specific CP value in a complex network of commander abilities and counter-abilities. You can easily balance the CP value around the battlefield impact that a unit/ability has (or which unit/abilty it should counter).
4) Sometimes these units/abilties allow you hang into the game even if you have less map control and less ressources, because they are not dependent on map control. Maybe you can't afford to tech further than T3, but you can get out that CP dependent unit. Some of my greatest turn arounds have to do with that mechanism.


CP gain is an unique counterweight to manpower/fuel/ammunition gain and map control. Next to population its another kind of alternative ressource. Without it you would be crushed even faster if you are behind. Some turnarounds never would have happened without this mechanism... and turning around an already lost battle is the greatest thing you can have in this game.

Just think twice about this before striping units of CP requirements. And if you really want to strip it, then you have to look at the timing of all commander units and abilities not just the heavy tanks. But I'm quite sure it will be never again balanced like it is atm across all gamemodes.
21 Jun 2019, 21:39 PM
#80
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jun 2019, 13:58 PMMusti
I really don't understand what is the problem here with dual requirements
1vs1 CPs don't matter, because you get them before you tech anyway
4vs4 tech doesn't matter, because you get it way before you have enough CP anyway.
Having both requiremnts covers both 1vs1 stalling strategies and 4vs4 rushes
I mean, if go with a fuel funneling strat you can probably get a tiger out before UKF can get a Valentine (because its locked by CPs) and apparently that's not a problem?

+1
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