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Requesting that the Ost 251 Forward Retreat Point stay.

15 Jun 2019, 00:22 AM
#1
avatar of A. Soldier
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Posts: 2730 | Subs: 2

So the new Ostheer Strategic Reserves doctrine's 251 Observation mode setup features an antenna similar to that of the USF's Major which grants the player a Forward Retreat Point when the 251 is in it's observation mode.

The community mod team deems this as a bug and something unbalanced and while so I believe that it should stay and simply be balanced.

Arguments for it staying are that the Soviets with their zerg rush tactics get one in their new commander and have better staying power while the Ostheer one is questionable at best, especially in the later parts of a match where the 4 man Grenadier squads are easier to wipe by explosives.

Arguments against it staying is that it might be overpowered, especially when you take into account that it's also camouflaged. To that end I suggest it it either loses the camouflage or received an unlock upgrade for the Forward Retreat Point.

I really, really love this new commander and I think everything fits in thematically, it would be perfect if the 251 had some sort of repair upgrade aura ability ala the USF M3 HT's one from the AA campaign as others have already suggested and if the Tiger Ace, finally feeling like a proper unit, would get a different not as silly skin it would just be perfect for me.

But right now the 251 has only 2 routes, either mobile flare dispenser with this new commander which is not all that too much useful in my opinion or flame car, almost nobody uses it to reinforce and it being a Forward Retreat Point would greatly help the Ost, especially on large maps and in team games and overall just gives more utility and alternative playstyles to the vehicle.

Cheers and have a nice day.
15 Jun 2019, 00:35 AM
#2
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2793

Make the forward retreat point/vampire mode an upgrade mutually exclusive to flamethrowers for 50 ammo.
15 Jun 2019, 04:44 AM
#3
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

It does actually feel pretty good as a forward retreat point, but it would need tuning to stay as such. Forward retreat points tend to take a pretty decent investment usually. Given Ost’s Defensive nature and muni hunger early, maybe 100 munis would balance out the quick access?
15 Jun 2019, 04:48 AM
#4
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 129

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2019, 04:44 AMEnkidu
It does actually feel pretty good as a forward retreat point, but it would need tuning to stay as such. Forward retreat points tend to take a pretty decent investment usually. Given Ost’s Defensive nature and muni hunger early, maybe 100 munis would balance out the quick access?


Probably would need to make it cost 300 manpower to be honest its a mobile reinforce point which is much much stronger than stationnary one. It should just be fixed like all the other bugs lol. Let them some time.
15 Jun 2019, 08:16 AM
#5
avatar of Wittmann39

Posts: 42

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2019, 04:48 AMKobal


Probably would need to make it cost 300 manpower to be honest its a mobile reinforce point which is much much stronger than stationnary one. It should just be fixed like all the other bugs lol. Let them some time.


I would like this idea. A forward retreat point unlock ability with either munition or manpower is fine. Using munitions for this unlock means that conscript will not take on to early game LMG42s.
15 Jun 2019, 08:43 AM
#6
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 630

Its funny that a bug creates such a cool option. I also think i should stay but i can understand that some adjustments have to be made.

Options:
- Forward retreat point could be locked behind t3/t4.
- FRP loses camo/ Flares also not usable when acting like a FRP
- Put a heavy MP/munition cost on the FRP option

15 Jun 2019, 12:53 PM
#7
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 342



I have a 251/8 Medical Halftrack with this functionality; it gets an FRP upgrade at BP3.
If it's going to be a retreat point, it may as well have healing.

FRP would be very powerful for OST, but it could be balanced if placed in a weaker commander.
15 Jun 2019, 13:03 PM
#8
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2730 | Subs: 2



I have a 251/8 Medical Halftrack with this functionality; it gets an FRP upgrade at BP3.
If it's going to be a retreat point, it may as well have healing.

FRP would be very powerful for OST, but it could be balanced if placed in a weaker commander.


That's a nice skin you got for it there, nice.
16 Jun 2019, 16:39 PM
#9
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 215

How about enabling FRP at T4 for some munitions for both the ostheer 251 halftrack and the soviet M5 by default, without any doctrine requirement? Large maps are indeed very crippling for these two factions.
I mean these HTs can be used to reinforce on the frontline, but doing so they can be taken out quite easily by AT. It's also quite micro intensive and risky, compare this to simply tapping the retreat key and enjoying the retreat bonuses on the WFA factions with FRP.
Balance changes would include that these HTs can only act as FRP in friendly territory and would need some time to set up.
16 Jun 2019, 17:00 PM
#10
avatar of A. Soldier
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Posts: 2730 | Subs: 2

How about enabling FRP at T4 for some munitions for both the ostheer 251 halftrack and the soviet M5 by default, without any doctrine requirement? Large maps are indeed very crippling for these two factions.
I mean these HTs can be used to reinforce on the frontline, but doing so they can be taken out quite easily by AT. It's also quite micro intensive and risky, compare this to simply tapping the retreat key and enjoying the retreat bonuses on the WFA factions with FRP.
Balance changes would include that these HTs can only act as FRP in friendly territory and would need some time to set up.


Agreed.
16 Jun 2019, 17:27 PM
#11
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

This is literally what I have been suggesting for roughly a year now. I did it in the mod version feedback threads too! It should stay, as Ost is the ONLY faction without any kind of forward retreat point.
16 Jun 2019, 18:34 PM
#12
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 20

Retreat point feels fine and is not unbalanced cause the lack of heal. Yes, you can reinforce your Grens and PGrens at the front, but e.g. new PGrens without medkit struggle without heal. So it feels fine right now.

Maybe its possible to make the camouflage auto disbale when squads are reinforcing?!

Despite of that, main problem of the "Observation Post" is the pretty damn short range of flares. The idea of setting up the 251, camo it and use flares to recon doesnt work right now. You really have to set it up directly at the front to use the flares properly. But thats on high risk...

So please increase flare range and make the retreat point a real thing!
16 Jun 2019, 18:39 PM
#13
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2470 | Subs: 1

Dear God I wish more people were on the side of scrapping FRPs entirely. I dont want OST to get one because nobody should have them period IMO. But if thats not an option, they probably should get it and I wish the durability of FRPs was standardized. Idk why OKW needs to have the most durable one when their infantry is as strong as it is

Its not a fun mechanic, and it promotes blobbing. It's a lot less punishing to have your blob get suppressed/forced off when mass retreating is only halfway back to your base. I really dont get why its still a thing, even with the restrictions that have been added
16 Jun 2019, 22:37 PM
#14
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2948

I think it should stay, seeing as every other faction has some sort of retreat point somewhere.

That being said, it should be locked behind at least BP2 (if not BP3 as well) and should be an additional upgrade for the HT, both because it should be in line with other retreat points and because setting it up shouldn't force you to have to use it as a retreat point if you just want the observation capabilities. It should also get the reinforce time debuff that other retreat points get if it doesn't already.
16 Jun 2019, 23:07 PM
#15
avatar of A. Soldier
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Posts: 2730 | Subs: 2

I think it should stay, seeing as every other faction has some sort of retreat point somewhere.

That being said, it should be locked behind at least BP2 (if not BP3 as well) and should be an additional upgrade for the HT, both because it should be in line with other retreat points and because setting it up shouldn't force you to have to use it as a retreat point if you just want the observation capabilities. It should also get the reinforce time debuff that other retreat points get if it doesn't already.


Yeah, maybe something like the OKW 223. But I deff agree on locking it behind tech/structures.
16 Jun 2019, 23:26 PM
#16
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2324

Dear God I wish more people were on the side of scrapping FRPs entirely. I dont want OST to get one because nobody should have them period IMO. But if thats not an option, they probably should get it and I wish the durability of FRPs was standardized. Idk why OKW needs to have the most durable one when their infantry is as strong as it is

Its not a fun mechanic, and it promotes blobbing. It's a lot less punishing to have your blob get suppressed/forced off when mass retreating is only halfway back to your base. I really dont get why its still a thing, even with the restrictions that have been added


Actually FRP are a useful way to stop retreat hunting and adds new strategic options. Being the fact that OST is a defensive faction it was always denied a FRP and because bunkers could fortify any part of the map. But now allied factions do that every single game and it even affects balance. There is no reason OST shouldn't have an FRP now.

As game changes go, buffing and adding features instead of cutting and nerfing. I say it's ok to leave the feature. Its doctrinal at least.

Blobbing is caused by unit durability paired with cost efficiency (namely riflemen, IS and volks) not because of FRP.

To loose camouflage sounds cool if the 251 acts as frp
16 Jun 2019, 23:42 PM
#17
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 310 | Subs: 1

Make the FRP disable camo, lock it behind some kind of upgrade and I think it'll be fine.
17 Jun 2019, 00:30 AM
#18
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2470 | Subs: 1


But now allied factions do that every single game and it even affects balance. There is no reason OST shouldn't have an FRP now.


Idk why you're telling me this, I already said Ost should get one if everybody else does...
17 Jun 2019, 06:26 AM
#19
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 215

Just a simple argument for ost and sov FRP: some say that FRPs would make ostheer and soviets op, but if it's that true, then why don't these two factions dominate against WFA armies on smaller maps where FRPs don't really make a difference?
We are not talking about making these factions stronger, we are talking about a handicap they are suffering on large maps.
Again, their FRPs shouldn't be a doctrinal choice but a default feature imo.
17 Jun 2019, 07:09 AM
#20
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1100

I support all that - it would give so much more diversity. Healing could be applied in some 'cool' way. How about some button on the retreat point halftack to drop some medical supplies like okw pios next to it to be picked up with a healig aura? It could be for free after purchasing the upgrade on the halftrack or come without extra upgrade cost but you should pay every time you drop such crates.
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